Sabots now legal in Idaho

[bergie]

I would argue against non-magnifying scopes as well. Even without magnification there is an advantage to a scope. Quality optics facilitate faster target acquisition, visual clarity, light gathering, etc. Savvy shooters will choose reticles with ballistic reticles or use the duplex subtensions to help gauge holdover for longer shots.

I'm not big on allowances for people with disabilities either, as in allowing those with vison problems to use a non-magnifying scope. It makes me sound like a big jerk but I just feel like it leaves too much room to be abused. Life isn't fair and sometimes we are limited by our physical abilities by no fault of our own. That said, I'm not actively trying to eliminate those exceptions either. I also know the day will come when my eyes can't line up iron sights and my legs don't climb the mountains like they used to. I hope I'm humble enough not to demand special exceptions for optics and ATVs that might diminish the experience of others just so I can keep going.

Yes accuracy is important for ethical hunting but we should be humble enough to find our own effective range and limit our shots to range that we can be accurate with our equipment. That is one of the cool things about the Cold Bow/Bore challenges. It causes shooters to confront the limits of their effectiveness.

My apologies to the OP @timcorcoran , I may have single-handedly sidetracked your thread. I really do appreciate your effort to communicate with IDFG and come back with their answer, good stuff.

maybe a sidetrack but good discussion. allowing sabots leads to the question of when will scopes be next? I am with you, I hope never.

 

[Jebel]

I would argue against non-magnifying scopes as well. Even without magnification there is an advantage to a scope. Quality optics facilitate faster target acquisition, visual clarity, light gathering, etc. Savvy shooters will choose reticles with ballistic reticles or use the duplex subtensions to help gauge holdover for longer shots.

I'm not big on allowances for people with disabilities either, as in allowing those with vison problems to use a non-magnifying scope. It makes me sound like a big jerk but I just feel like it leaves too much room to be abused. Life isn't fair and sometimes we are limited by our physical abilities by no fault of our own. That said, I'm not actively trying to eliminate those exceptions either. I also know the day will come when my eyes can't line up iron sights and my legs don't climb the mountains like they used to. I hope I'm humble enough not to demand special exceptions for optics and ATVs that might diminish the experience of others just so I can keep going.

Yes accuracy is important for ethical hunting but we should be humble enough to find our own effective range and limit our shots to range that we can be accurate with our equipment. That is one of the cool things about the Cold Bow/Bore challenges. It causes shooters to confront the limits of their effectiveness.

My apologies to the OP @timcorcoran , I may have single-handedly sidetracked your thread. I really do appreciate your effort to communicate with IDFG and come back with their answer, good stuff.

I’ll give you credit for consistency, though I don’t agree. There is a meaningful difference between advantage and access. Non-magnifying scopes or accommodations afforded the disabled allow access for hunters to be in the field who otherwise could not. Any small potential advantage of reticles, in your example, are far outweighed by the benefit of affording access to this pastime we all enjoy.

I think tools and rules that primarily expand access are a good thing. It may be challenging at times to draw a clear line between those things weighted towards advantage vs access, but such lines can be worked out.

 

[idelkslayer]

I’ll give you credit for consistency, though I don’t agree. There is a meaningful difference between advantage and access. Non-magnifying scopes or accommodations afforded the disabled allow access for hunters to be in the field who otherwise could not. Any small potential advantage of reticles, in your example, are far outweighed by the benefit of affording access to this pastime we all enjoy.

I think tools and rules that primarily expand access are a good thing. It may be challenging at times to draw a clear line between those things weighted towards advantage vs access, but such lines can be worked out.

I appreciate the civil disagreement. I think the compromise between our positions is already in place at least in Idaho. Hunters who have a visual disability can apply for an exceptions that allows them to use a non-magnifying or low power scope. This prevents the general public from exploiting that advantage while also allowing some concessions to those who need it in order to participate at all.

 

[Dunky]

Hunting Idaho last year ran into three hunters. 2 were
Ikely in their 50s and one teenager. The 2 older guys had scopes because they had the exemption for eye sight problems. ( I believe Idaho allows up to a 4 power scope in those cases) I did not witness, so going on what they said but the two scoped guys said they shot bulls at 250-300 yds and were just out with the kid trying to find a closer one. Who knows if their distance was accurate but going by what I can shoot accurately with my open sights I think a scope does offer a real advantage, likely much more than the projectile.

 

[ElDiablito]

I think a scope does offer a real advantage, likely much more than the projectile.

Absolutely!

 

[flyfisher117]

wish we could trade Sabots for 209 primers. Trying to find 4 wing musket caps sucks. Finding a gun I like that takes No 11 caps sucks too.

 

[ElDiablito]

wish we could trade Sabots for 209 primers. Trying to find 4 wing musket caps sucks. Finding a gun I like that takes No 11 caps sucks too.

Percussion caps (#11 and musket) are pretty widely available. Check MidSouth, Grafs, Brownells, Blue Collar, Drifters Gear (they have them in stock now) or your closest Sportsman’s Warehouse.

Look for a used White if you want a solid rifle that takes #11s.

 

[flyfisher117]

Percussion caps (#11 and musket) are pretty widely available. Check MidSouth, Grafs, Brownells, Blue Collar, Drifters Gear (they have them in stock now) or your closest Sportsman’s Warehouse.

Look for a used White if you want a solid rifle that takes #11s.

CCI musket reenactment caps are widely available. The others not so much.

11s are hit or miss. They’re now showing up on shelves after being non existent for 5 years.

209 primers would just give us new muzzle loaders shooters more options to get started.

 

[ElDiablito]

CCI musket reenactment caps are widely available. The others not so much.

11s are hit or miss. They’re now showing up on shelves after being non existent for 5 years.

209 primers would just give us new muzzle loaders shooters more options to get started.

Yeah, I keep pretty close track of where and when they’re available. I’ve bought several thousand over the past year or so. You just have to keep an eye out. If you don’t want to buy from those sources above, Muzzle-loaders has them too.

Search: 150 results found for "Percussion* caps*"

Muzzleloader Rifles, Muzzleloader Pistols & Muzzleloader Supplies - #1 Source for Muzzleloaders. Black Powder Rifles, Pistols & Black Powder Kits. Shop all the top muzzleloader brands like CVA, Traditions, Thompson/Center, Lyman, Investarm & More.

muzzle-loaders.com

No doubt, 209 rifles are more widely available.

 

[Wrench]

I have a sightron muzzleloader scope and some rifles wearing irons that can be incredibly as well.

My scope is cheaper and offers a undeniable advantage over my very high quality irons. I can dial the scope a known value and anticipate the impacts MUCH easier than the irons. I also have holdover built into the scope.....it's an undeniable advantage.

 

[Customweld]

CCI musket reenactment caps are widely available. The others not so much.

11s are hit or miss. They’re now showing up on shelves after being non existent for 5 years.

209 primers would just give us new muzzle loaders shooters more options to get started.

If you are around a D and B Supply, they have RWS musket caps pretty regularly.

 

[flyfisher117]

Yeah, I keep pretty close track of where and when they’re available. I’ve bought several thousand over the past year or so. You just have to keep an eye out. If you don’t want to buy from those sources above, Muzzle-loaders has them too.

Search: 150 results found for "Percussion* caps*"

Muzzleloader Rifles, Muzzleloader Pistols & Muzzleloader Supplies - #1 Source for Muzzleloaders. Black Powder Rifles, Pistols & Black Powder Kits. Shop all the top muzzleloader brands like CVA, Traditions, Thompson/Center, Lyman, Investarm & More.

muzzle-loaders.com

No doubt, 209 rifles are more widely available.

Yeah I took the screwin and ordered from them. First I’ve seen them in 6 months.

If you are around a D and B Supply, they have RWS musket caps pretty regularly.

I wish we had one in the east part of the state.

 

[wowzers]

Wow didnt think I'd see this day....

Me either.

 

[wowzers]

I’m pro anything that makes the muzzleloader shoot more accurately. Regardless of percussion/flintlock vs inlines w/ 209s, powder loose vs pellet, patch and ball vs sabot, and irons vs scope.

In my experience with shooting muzzleloaders over the last 20 years. Starting with irons, balls and loose powder to now scope, Barnes coppers and pellets. My groups have gone from pie plates at 50yds to 1.5” at 100yds. Granted I struggle to see iron sights.

Efficient and ethical kills are what I believe most of us on here want so I may case it’s really not hard to guess which muzzleloader I’m grabbing and hunting with.

In my case sabots and scope are more effective and humane because they get me better groups and dead game not wounded or missed game.

I also don’t believe that allowing sabots and/or scopes for muzzleloaders will affect the harvest numbers so much that it’s noticeable.

Based on the theory that a muzzleloader that is easier to shoot and shoot more accurately may or may not cause more to hunt the season. Looking back through the licenses purchased over the last 10 years does not support that tho. Licenses purchased has stayed about the same and the harvest success has been 15-17%. With scopes being allowed 5-6years ago. I’ll point out these numbers are whitetail harvests in my state. Which I’ve been made aware aren’t elk… I guess I never knew that….

Honestly, and this is me reading between the lines of your argument, you are worried that you might have more competition in the field. Nothing to do with effectiveness or humaneness. I’ve seen this same argument for years and the between the lines is always the same.

Hunt with your old technology that’s fine but don’t fight to limit mine.

@timcorcoran Sorry for hijacking thread for this rant.

How on earth do you think sabots and scopes will not affect harvest numbers?

 

[ritter26]

I use a Knight Ultra Lite .50 caliber with a 1:28 twist. So 300 gr bullet?

Hi @timcorcoran,

Did you happen to try the 50 cal 300 gr Barnes bullets with sabot? I purchased some and I found the fit is too tight requiring excessive force to load in my Knight UL.
https://muzzle-loaders.com/collections/bullets/products/barnes-expander-mz-fb-bullets

Hi @ElDiablito,

Any suggestions on how to get a good fit for Barnes with sabot for my Knight UL? I didn't see a Barnes sabot sizing pack. I've used No Excuses and Thor previously both of which had sizing packs. I use a 0.500" diameter in No Excuses and 0.501" in Thor. For the 300 gr Barnes with sabot, I verified that the sabot and bullet are both loose when I put them in the bullet separately. I read that this may suggest the bullet is too big for my bore.

Thanks for the post - I've found it very helpful!

 

[ElDiablito]

https://muzzle-loaders.com/collections/bullets/products/barnes-expander-mz-fb-bullets

Hi @ElDiablito,

Any suggestions on how to get a good fit for Barnes with sabot for my Knight UL? I didn't see a Barnes sabot sizing pack. I've used No Excuses and Thor previously both of which had sizing packs. I use a 0.500" diameter in No Excuses and 0.501" in Thor. For the 300 gr Barnes with sabot, I verified that the sabot and bullet are both loose when I put them in the bullet separately. I read that this may suggest the bullet is too big for my bore.

Thanks for the post - I've found it very helpful!

You’ll need a thinner-petaled sabot (or an adjustable sizer to size down the bullet slightly.)

I’d try one of the Harvester crush ribs or an MMP HPH24 sabot. They will give you a smaller loaded od.

Crush Rib - High Pressure Sabots - 50 Caliber (50 Pack)

The Harvester Muzzleloading patented Crush Rib Sabots are precision engineered and manufactured in the USA to exact specifications and offer superior accuracy. Patented by Harvester Muzzleloading Reduces Loading Friction Up to 50% Operates to Loading Specs of all Muzzleloaders Easy to Load...

harvestermuzzleloading.com

 

[ritter26]

You’ll need a thinner-petaled sabot (or an adjustable sizer to size down the bullet slightly.)

I’d try one of the Harvester crush ribs or an MMP HPH24 sabot. They will give you a smaller loaded od.

Crush Rib - High Pressure Sabots - 50 Caliber (50 Pack)

The Harvester Muzzleloading patented Crush Rib Sabots are precision engineered and manufactured in the USA to exact specifications and offer superior accuracy. Patented by Harvester Muzzleloading Reduces Loading Friction Up to 50% Operates to Loading Specs of all Muzzleloaders Easy to Load...

harvestermuzzleloading.com

Thank you! Very much appreciated - I'll try those options.

 

[LP5000]

Hey Folks,

Idaho Dept of Fish and Game just released their new regulations for 2025, and this year they are allowing Sabots during the muzzleloader-only seasons.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/hunt/weapons/muzzleloader

I've been hunting elk with my Knight Ultra-Lite .50 caliber for the past few years. Last year I used Thor copper bullets and those worked great. I want to stick with copper.

What recommendations do you have for copper bullets with sabots?

@sabotloader and @ElDiablito I would especially appreciate hearing from you guys!

I'm just tryuhg to get into the muzzleloader space this year in ID. Does this offer a big advantage? Should I look i to using sabots as a newb?

 

[ritter26]

I'm just tryuhg to get into the muzzleloader space this year in ID. Does this offer a big advantage? Should I look i to using sabots as a newb?

Muzzleloader controlled hunt tags do provide better draw odds for controlled hunts, but the trade-off compared to rifles is shorter effective range (150-200 yds with iron sights). The controlled hunt muzzleloader hunts require muzzleloader permits and stricter rules. They have relaxed the bullet restrictions in the last two years to improve access to a larger variety of bullet options due to recent supply limitations and improve accuracy (conicals in 2024, sabots in 2025).

Muzzleloader only controlled hunt rules (the focus of this post): https://idfg.idaho.gov/hunt/weapons/muzzleloader

Muzzleloaders can be used without restriction (209 primers, scopes) in any Idaho 'short range weapons only' seasons.