S2H Scope Interest

[PathFinder]

Make an MOA version. It’s more popular with USA based hunters, the target market for the product.

Mil being better doesn’t matter. You have whole generations married to MOA. Nobody is converting for one scope.

Those people can buy Leupolds and Vortex (and they would anyways). This is not for them.

 

[ZeroTech Optics]

I know this is a great achievement on its own and i don't want to take away from that but just out of curiosity will you use what has been learned about durability in this scope and apply it in the more budget offerings or across you full range or is this level of durability only possible at the higher price point? ( i do realise this scope is still much less than some other brands though)

As we have stated, the goal here is to focus on the project at hand. All other considerations, as you can imagine, have been bounced around the room. But our team and S2H is focusing on getting this right before we even seriously consider chasing other rabbit holes.

Keep your eye on the ball folks!

 

[BigCountry376]

As we have stated, the goal here is to focus on the project at hand. All other considerations, as you can imagine, have been bounced around the room. But our team and S2H is focusing on getting this right before we even seriously consider chasing other rabbit holes.

Keep your eye on the ball folks!

You guys have earned some credibility in my eyes working with Ryan and Form on this.

 

[Schmo]

As we have stated, the goal here is to focus on the project at hand. All other considerations, as you can imagine, have been bounced around the room. But our team and S2H is focusing on getting this right before we even seriously consider chasing other rabbit holes.

Keep your eye on the ball folks!

You have to forgive our excitement that someone is actually listening to us!

 

[The Guide]

Pretty soon you guys are going to get a scope with a MOA turret and MIL reticle just put of spite.

But the turrets will be in 1/3 MOA aka 1/10 MIL...

Jay

 

[HuntHarder]

You have to forgive our excitement that someone is actually listening to us!

Yeah, some of you guys act like teenage girls getting asked to Homecoming for the first time.

 

[glock233]

Hasn't this dead horse been kicked enough?

I’ve seen dead horses resurrected when there’s money on the line.

 

[Lawnboi]

Well mils are just too effective!

Everyone who loves complaining should just get on the horn with your local wildlife commissioner and get them to ban mils. That would be the normal thing to do.

 

[huntnful]

You don’t have to switch over to all Mil just to try a scope. Process is still exactly the same. Range, dial, hold wind, shoot.

You don’t have to start out by learning
/memorizing all the MIL tricks. Don’t let that deter you from trying it if you like all the other features IMO.

 

[Schmo]

You don’t have to switch over to all Mil just to try a scope. Process is still exactly the same. Range, dial, hold wind, shoot.

You don’t have to start out by learning
/memorizing all the MIL tricks. Don’t let that deter you from trying it if you like all the other features IMO.

Finally! A MOA guy that’s reasonable!

 

[Huntin Fool]

Yeah, some of you guys act like teenage girls getting asked to Homecoming for the first time.

And some people on here act like they’re trying to get a specific member or two to go to homecoming with them….not sure which side is more laughable

 

[streamerfish]

I’ve seen dead horses resurrected when there’s money on the line.

Sure, that's true in some instances.....But honestly, lets logically think this whole thing through a little bit.

I don't know for a fact obviously. But, I am willing to bet that S2H "owns" or has some kind of controlling say in how the new reticle is used. Its their idea, I doubt they are gonna let others control its fate so to speak. The reticle probably more then anything else is the defining feature of the scope, the market separator. The reticle is a MIL reticle. Its been made abundantly clear countless times that S2H has no interest in making a MOA reticle. IF they control the reticle, then MOA is a non-starter.

I would also assume, that this is much more then just some kind of handshake collaboration deal. Both Zero Tech and S2H have financial skin in the game. No doubt there was meetings with back and forth on the parameters of the "partnership" and what the scope would be, and probably some kind of contract or contracts in writing spelling it all out. I would be pretty shocked, if S2H left this open for Zero Tech to just do whatever they want with the reticle.

Also, taking into account that the product is still probably somewhere in the range of 8 months from hitting the market. And after it hits the market, sales will probably determine what, if any future products might come down the line. And that will take time to evaluate.

Is their some kind of miniscule possibility that someday way down the line...probably years down the line, I suppose.

But it the relative near future, I would put alot of money on it being a very, very dead horse.

 

[glock233]

This mindset is wild to me.

Serious question as I’m just curious a little about it as it comes up a bit on this thread and I’m interested in it.
What sort of style shooting do you do? Typical ranges and targets?
Do you need any distance capability realistically?
If so, what gear do you use for that? ie, bino and separate rf, drop chart, chart on the stock, no chart?

Let me start with the most important thing, which is that I’m industry adjacent and study the firearms market as part of my job. About 75% of the useful knowledge I’ve learned from others came from this forum. And, particularly, Form himself. He devotes a lot of time to educating others with minimal apparent financial interest. And even if he were financially interested he’s clearly got integrity. I’ve watched from the outside as this forum has moved the needle in the industry in several ways.

The dominant clique here are driven by a contrarian streak, desire to innovate, desire to be right. Particularly Form, UM ,S2H, etc. Those impulses and personalities generate a lot of value and don’t just get cast aside easily.

To more directly answer your inquiry, all of my long range shooting is for fun or hunting. I’ve got a hunting group of about 10 plus a few trusted guides, and it’s 100% MOA. Plus family.

For fun I have a range of with targets from 100-1000 and I put out about 500 rounds a month at distances 300 yards plus. For hunting I go 5-6 times a year. I’m not the most prolific or skilled at either activity, but I’m above average. Nearly all of my shooting and hunts are done with others trapped in MOA.

Mils are a better system for what I do, until you consider the social element. Then it’s ridiculous because MOA is fully functional.

My primary equipment is MOA reticle scopes built for dialing. Nightforce for serious tasks. Zeiss, Athlon, or SWFA for screwing around. Dial to distance and hold for wind with a marked FFP reticle. Applied Ballistics for solutions using paired rangefinders. Hunting: now—- when I am hunting I usually use Revic RF binos, which give fantastic ballistic live solutions using the onboard weather station. Before—custom turrets updated slightly for elevation changes.

Wind is really the practical place where Mils are WAY better. With MOA you learn your base wind holds, and then guessing or you’re using AB or Revics to get the holds are distance. With Mils you’re a lot better off on wind. Fortunately I have the wind behavior of my 6mm loads completely down, and it’s really easy to stay effective for hunting.

They’re not fundamentally different systems. But Mils are more intuitive, faster, and better with wind.

When you’re making a product, however, purity can be very expensive. The S2H guys are obviously not making this scope to make money. But maybe ZT is? Maybe they’ll find a way to get the features into something MOA so they can have access to 75%+ of the US hunting market participants.

 

[Huntnpack 2]

Jump in the DeLorean Marty we gotta go for a car ride to see how this turns out.

 

[rafiki]

Sure, that's true in some instances.....But honestly, lets logically think this whole thing through a little bit.

I don't know for a fact obviously. But, I am willing to bet that S2H "owns" or has some kind of controlling say in how the new reticle is used. Its their idea, I doubt they are gonna let others control its fate so to speak. The reticle probably more then anything else is the defining feature of the scope, the market separator.

i was thinking about this...are reticles patentable or protected IP?

 

[streamerfish]

i was thinking about this...are reticles patentable or protected IP?

They are, if they meet certain criteria. Which I am assuming that this reticle does due to its market unique design. The original reticle its based on may play into that as well. I am not sure.

But a "generic" duplex or german #4 is generally considered to be open source. "Unique" reticles can be and are often times patented.

And like I said, I could be completely wrong on this, but I am betting that S2H in some way has control over it. Whether that is by contract, via actual patent, both, or some other means...

 

[rafiki]

also, @ZeroTech Optics, "thrive adv" makes sense i guess. just shocked you didn't want to go with Justin Beaverscope (credit: @Dobermann ) or Mr. Peeper ( @swavescatter ) ...if you haven't seen them, there were some REAL winners for scope names in the shoot2hunt podcast thread.

 

[dårlig jeger]

View attachment 1015656

Well done!

 

[glock233]

i was thinking about this...are reticles patentable or protected IP?

It doesn’t matter. I wouldn’t bother with a reticle patent here. Just lock ZT with an agreement and rely on generic copyright or ZT’s other IP.

If I’m guessing, I think they’re expecting to get ripped off, just not by ZT. They’d be proud of moving the market, etc.

 

[KHntr]

They’re not fundamentally different systems. But Mils are more intuitive, faster, and better with wind.

I appreciate the in depth response. For your particular uses I can see why you choose to stay MOA. Makes sense to me the way you have laid it out.

I think why it throws me off in other posts made here in the whole MOA vs MIL discussion, as my motivation to switch over to mil evidently is different than yours (or anyone else's) and that is an easy point to forget.

For me, what you posted above and I snipped out is the main reason I tried mil. It’s more intuitive and it’s faster. Full stop. That is the deciding factor for me right there.
That is the reason I switched from a stand alone rf and printed chart to integrated rf bino and dedicated solution, or rf bino and horizontal distance - easier to swap between multiple rifles.
I switched because my shooting buddies are MOA.

I grew up killing stuff from 6 years old on with my dad and grandpa who made sure that I got the shot, up till I was 12 or so. Then it morphed to who was quicker.
That has held till now for me (at 51) shooting coyotes with buddies. It is incrementally faster to drop binos after grabbing a range on a moving coyote and drop two from the range and either holding on the reticle or dialing versus doing the math mentally or consulting a chart and then dialing MOA.

And THAT gets me shots off first, and more first round hits than they do.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate that.