S2H Scope Interest

[Lionheart]

I mostly shot these 2 scopes in 2025 and into this year.

I got the Maven in 2024 and then picked up the SWFA when it restocked in February.

I like the solid reticle on the SWFA better than the center dot on the Maven.

I enjoy these aspects of the Maven over the SWFA though:

- the mag ring is easier to crank on and the nub on the mag ring points straight up at 6x for a quick visual reference.

- tool-less turret slipping

- I like the zero stop. My 223 zero stops are set at -0.2 for ADI 55gr Blitzking and zero is IMI 77gr Razor Core. My hunting rifle is set for one ammo at 0 and I can just crank on it until it stops and take a peek to make sure.

It's not a hunting thing given the range involved but I like having 10mils to crank around on the elevation knob with the Maven. I don't like having to go up 5 and then start counting again with the SWFA and then track that all back to zero after the shot.

I'm looking forward to your new scope. I got to play with the THLR reticle for a couple days on a ZP5 before I sent it back and your tidied up version of that reticle looks great. It's going to be sweet.

Pretty much my experience also. I will say the weight of the Maven vs the 3-9 SWFA has resulted in me owning one Maven and 3 of the SWFA’s.
But I’m old and the gym doesn’t help as much anymore lol…

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Just saw this thread. Slummed my way through a 6 page discussion on Mils or MOA looking for info. Didn't find much. Have 10 pages left.

Could someone tell me when these will be available and are there pics of them yet?

FFP Mils btw.

There are pictures, but they may be in the “would you buy this scope thread?” If you search that thread for posts by Form, you’ll find them.

 

[Johnwell]

Hard-use owners of the Maven have been turning away because the elevation turret spins when the rifle is being transported or carried. @Shortschaf discovered a larger o-ring that stiffens it up enough to restore trust.

The parallax knob is too stiff. A ranger band provides enough purchase to make turning it satisfactory. It's a cheap rubber band similar to what you would see on a lobster that's for sale.

View attachment 1012949

But-but-but… that ranger band covers up the parallax markings; how would you know if it’s in yards, meters, fathoms, or cubits?

 

[Nine Banger]

But-but-but… that ranger band covers up the parallax markings; how would you know if it’s in yards, meters, fathoms, or cubits?

I was thinking about all you guys on Wednesday when I was at a school and a 7th grader was explaining to me that a meter is the same as a yard and it is "this big" and he was pointing down to his legs and feet that were spread apart across about 5 and 1/2 12x12" floor tiles.

 

[Rhettster433]

I have never shot with a mils scope, but am looking to het one to try soon. This whole argument seems no different than arguing what the best caliber is for a specific game animal. They all(within reason, dont take a 22lr to hunt moose) work well enough. Some maybe give an advantage but it is enough to warrant buying new guns and selling old ones when you are just scraping by already. If it is no problem for you to spend thousands and make the switch, have at it. But telling everyone else that they need to switch in order to become better shooters is dumb. Practice with what you have, save up some, and switch when you can. Or, if you are not hunting at extreme varying ranges(like me in alabama where all shots are between 50-200 yards) then dont switch at all because it doesn’t matter. But as a young man that is trying to learn more about long range shooting and determining where to start, all i see is a giant pissing contest between stubborn mules. Learn from others, or dont. But arguing is not profitable for anyone. A spirited debate can be but come on guys. I am 21 and shouldnt have to tell you to grow up

 

[solarshooter]

I am 21

lol

 

[Hthunter]

I’m definitely in for one and whatever is required to get it first round. Looking forward to the 2-8 development as well.

 

[BjornF16]

Durability testing is more than just the drop tests. It also includes the shot count (3,000 rounds?) and ability to hold zero after being banged around either in vehicle or backpacking use while achieving the round count.

While passing the drop tests doesn’t guarantee passing the remainder of the durability evaluation, it certainly improves the odds.

 

[Rich M]

Personally, I am impressed you could have over 6000 posts here and have never heard of Maven.

Everyone is so stuffy around here these days!

 

[Marbles]

Personally, I am impressed you could have over 6000 posts here and have never heard of Maven.

Well, really the RS1.2, AKA The Maven; that is the only Maven that has shown itself reliable. The rest of the brand is not much to talk about and I can see how someone would miss it.

On another note, I find the aggressive knurling on the turret that will let it snag and spin, then the complete lack of aggressive knurling on the parallax knob amusing. If only those two could be inverted.

 

[Kaleb]

I have never shot with a mils scope, but am looking to het one to try soon. This whole argument seems no different than arguing what the best caliber is for a specific game animal. They all(within reason, dont take a 22lr to hunt moose) work well enough. Some maybe give an advantage but it is enough to warrant buying new guns and selling old ones when you are just scraping by already. If it is no problem for you to spend thousands and make the switch, have at it. But telling everyone else that they need to switch in order to become better shooters is dumb. Practice with what you have, save up some, and switch when you can. Or, if you are not hunting at extreme varying ranges(like me in alabama where all shots are between 50-200 yards) then dont switch at all because it doesn’t matter. But as a young man that is trying to learn more about long range shooting and determining where to start, all i see is a giant pissing contest between stubborn mules. Learn from others, or dont. But arguing is not profitable for anyone. A spirited debate can be but come on guys. I am 21 and shouldnt have to tell you to grow up

I'm surprised that you can lead out with you've never used a mil scope and end with you're 21 and telling people to grow up. Either you're wise beyond your years and very possible. Are a bad ass and again very possible or you're an entitled kid who thinks a bunch of grown men will stop arguing and listen to what you took the time to post. I don't mean to sound harsh at all but it's odd coming in with admitting no credentials stating your age and telling a bunch of grown men to grow up.

 

[Marbles]

I'm surprised that you can lead out with you've never used a mil scope and end with you're 21 and telling people to grow up. Either you're wise beyond your years and very possible. Are a bad ass and again very possible or you're an entitled kid who thinks a bunch of grown men will stop arguing and listen to what you took the time to post. I don't mean to sound harsh at all but it's odd coming in with admitting no credentials stating your age and telling a bunch of grown men to grow up.

I almost told him shooting is full of bullshit and to invest in some emotional hip waders.

I also found it odd that he is looking at getting started and doesn't understand the importance of acknowledging that one system is better, even if only marginally. It gets expensive learning everything for ones self, either in dollars or in mental contortions.

Or the lack of acknowledgement that what he calls arguing might actually be spirited debate (I don't recall any name calling).

Regardless, the whole situation is funny as the stated purpose of this thread was for OP to put everything that matters at the top and get polling data; so despite OP being offendedat discussion and apparently wanting no substantial posts (edit: reasonably annoyed at seeing what should be a dead horse rise to be beaten again), anything that bumps the thread to the top helps it gather data.

The "I'll take one" posts are vapid and pointless given the pole.

 

[dårlig jeger]

But arguing is not profitable for anyone.

Sure it is. Look at all these scope companies that sell in moa and mils.

Every time there's a spirited debate and someone vehemently defends moa through a convoluted math theory and linear measurements, a person who reads it, falls for it.



In all seriousness, people get emotional about the defense of moa because they don't want to admit they picked the wrong team. Its ego. It is expensive to switch. And the gains are effectively zero if you hunt 50-200 yards.

No one is saying you should just smash your moa scopes with a hammer and start over. No one is calling anyone a loser for picking the wrong team, it isn't sports. There's no reason to defend your choice. People who try and convey the reasons mils are superior are just trying to help.

But mils is the better team, make no mistake about it. The best defense of moa is, "it's not THAT much worse."

The hope is that anyone reading and just starting out can get on the correct path and not have to worry about switching.

So yes, we could all grow up a little, dump our egos and personal attachments, and just see each system for what it is. And then, objectively, understand that mils is the correct choice and moa scopes should be smashed with a hammer.

 

[BjornF16]

Regardless, the whole situation is funny as the stated purpose of this thread was for OP to put everything that matters at the top and get polling data; so despite OP being offended at discussion and apparently wanting no substantial posts, anything that bumps the thread to the top helps it gather data.

The "I'll take one" posts are vapid and pointless given the pole.

Not necessarily offended...more like tired of rehashing the same silly arguments which makes it hard to find legit questions or comments.

Point taken though on keeping it at the top...

 

[solarshooter]

Not necessarily offended...more like tired of rehashing the same silly arguments which makes it hard to find legit questions or comments.

Same old to us, but new to each new shooter/member that has to go through it. I did too. For one it's hard to find previous discussions since they often happen under threads with other titles (case in point here). And for two, everyone has to articulate their own ideas and arguments and work through it. Usually it's not this bad though haha.

I don't mind working through it repeatedly. I don't take offense or really emotionally invest and having to articulate and defend improves my understanding.

 

[Marbles]

Not necessarily offended...more like tired of rehashing the same silly arguments which makes it hard to find legit questions or comments.

Point taken though on keeping it at the top...

Fair, I edited my post.

so despite OP being offendedat discussion and apparently wanting no substantial posts (edit: reasonably annoyed at seeing what should be a dead horse rise to be beaten again), anything that bumps the thread to the top helps it gather data.

 

[Chris in TN]

I'm surprised that you can lead out with you've never used a mil scope and end with you're 21 and telling people to grow up. Either you're wise beyond your years and very possible. Are a bad ass and again very possible or you're an entitled kid who thinks a bunch of grown men will stop arguing and listen to what you took the time to post. I don't mean to sound harsh at all but it's odd coming in with admitting no credentials stating your age and telling a bunch of grown men to grow up.

I honestly think he nailed it - even if it hits me to some extent in the process. His post comes across as wise beyond its years and I hope my kids can pull that off when they're his age. I couldn't.

There's a huge groupthink aspect here and a whole lot of knowledge in some areas of this site but a lack of leadership. Leaders can put data into context - not just yell at people to shut up when they reject such uncontextualized data. Or even ask hard questions about it.

Dunning-Krueger applies to groupthink, too, and as an admitted still outsider, I don't think the hardcore go-fast go-long crowd realizes how disconnected they are from typical hunting scenarios for most of us. Solipsism is a huge thing and seems to be easy for any of us to fall into it, and the more advanced you are in some field, the easier it seems to be to begin to live in some bubble and disconnect from reality. The vast, vast majority of people (certainly me included) won't ever be in that elite top 1% of the guys who can plop down and kill stuff at incredible distances under the worst conditions in incredibly small timeframes - and we don't even want to be there, which is the point that gets missed. Tunnel vision, in short.

There'll always be stuff to be learned from those guys, in a way analogous to how car racing leads to better cars. But it has to be filtered through a whole world of people who hold on to the reality that daily drivers aren't racers. Racecar drivers might not like that, but it's real.

I also found it odd that he is looking at getting started and doesn't understand the importance of acknowledging that one system is better, even if only marginally.

He understands that a marginal and largely theoretical 'better' is of minimal importance - if it's real. That's honestly way more important than understanding 'which is better' as if it must be some showdown with a winner. Shooting is supposed to be fun, not some real life version of Highlander. Prioritizing where and how to focus his efforts to build skills will take him further faster than majoring in minors.

A guy on page one of the thread stated a preference. He got dogpiled almost immediately. The guys actually selling these scopes probably would like the data on who wants what, more than they want the drama of hashing out which is 'best'. I can't speak for them but I think there's at least a solid chance that I'm right on that.

To be fair, you gave a solid reasoning for your view that your system is superior. I get the psychology aspect of doing base 10 under stress better than doing base 4 and I genuinely appreciate your explanation of it. Possibly the best pro-mrad post in the entire thread. But I also gave you a counterpoint on why base-4 elevation adjustment simply isn't needed (dials can be built or marked in yards or meters) and base-4 adjustment for wind isn't even used. Nobody holds wind in 1/4moa increments.

If I owned -0- riflescopes and was starting today I'd likely go mrads. But the logistical cost of switching in reality far outweighs any theoretical benefit. As I said, I'm interested in this scope in spite of its reticle. I'm not 'afraid' of either system and am not even interested enough in the extreme speed aspect to even worry about switching between mils and moas on different existing scopes. For my uses I could very likely swap from day to day and limp by well enough - my issue isn't the math, at all; it's getting into position in the first place then making the wind call itself. But I *am* worried about the learning curve for learning to manage different systems on my *other* rifles until I switch all of them out, which could literally take the rest of my life. I've got moa-based and non-dialing scopes that have zero reason whatsoever to ever be swapped unless they break. I've got cognitive issues (you can laugh at that as a freebie, lol) that make me prone to forgetting little things. I got halfway to town last night and had to stop and turn around and go home and check to see whether I'd closed the stove vent after the last load of wood - I had, but I couldn't remember it (or not) and didn't want to risk overfiring the stove. People like that don't want to switch little things in life where the switches have to be remembered and also don't want the headache and cost of changing a dozen or more riflescopes (that already function sufficiently as-is) or trying to remember which rifle has which system. The benefit has to be *major* to be worth it. It's not, for most of us. That's largely the same reasoning that keeps the military using 5.56 M16 derivatives instead of selling off (or scrapping) gazillions of existing rifles to swap everything. Quantity has a quality all of its own, as they say, and that's doubly true when you tell an entire market segment they need to spend gazillions of dollars completely swapping out everything they own for some theoretical benefit they'll never realize.

Stuff like the above is part of reality that a lot of people won't put any weight on. You switched, and believe that in doing so you have somehow slipped the surly bonds of earth and are flying high. I am genuinely glad for you and mean that as sincerely as possible. But a bunch of us likely won't do so, and will be fine anyway.

 

[betelgeuse]

All you young guys want all this fancy stuff. We just used toilet paper tubes. Never fogged up. No need to adjust. Sheesh

 

[Rhettster433]

I'm surprised that you can lead out with you've never used a mil scope and end with you're 21 and telling people to grow up. Either you're wise beyond your years and very possible. Are a bad ass and again very possible or you're an entitled kid who thinks a bunch of grown men will stop arguing and listen to what you took the time to post. I don't mean to sound harsh at all but it's odd coming in with admitting no credentials stating your age and telling a bunch of grown men to grow up.

I understand my opinion is more than likely undervalued and not gonna make any sort of impact. But the fact that i can see a pointless argument come up again and again and people get actually upset over it baffles me. Debating it and having the conversation is understandable. Like debating whether pizza or burgers are better. But to get upset and devolve into personal insults over something so trivial in the grand scheme of things makes me shake my head. I do think i am wiser than most my age, or at least take the time to try and understand others point of view before chiming in. I read every page of this thread and some things twice to make sure i understood. And seeing people that do know more than me and have been there/done that degrade others simply for thinking differently is disheartening when i am trying to join this community. I thought (perhaps too optimistically) that my seniors in the shooting community would be more openminded and accepting of others(or at least letting them learn the hard way without bashing them). I have never thought myself entitled, in fact i try really hard to keep those type thoughts pushed out so i can listen and learn from those around me. I know i am young and dumb and that is why i joined this forum. To learn. I never expected my one post to end the argument for good, but i hoped at least a few would read it and take some wisdom from it (however little i can offer). I dont know much about long range shooting or the difference between mils and moa which is why i didnt argue about either one, but i do know a decent bit about being relational with people, especially those i disagree with. This thread started about a potential new scope (which i am very interested in) and ended with a bunch of angry men seeing who can type the loudest and make others buckle beneath them.