Rock climbing style harness

[Mountain_Life]

Are you implying that rock climbing harnesses aren't safe?

 

[Macintosh]

Be careful up there. A 10 foot fall can be pretty serious, especially alone in the woods, and a surprisingly short fall onto static equipment can break stuff that may seem strong. And beware taking advice on life critical equipment from strangers, online or otherwise.

Totally 100% true, and excellent advice. So where do you think a hunter SHOULD turn for instruction and info?

The problem is, without ANY industry standard for a sit harness in a tree stand application, any company opens themselves up to huge liability by providing instruction on how to use it in that application. It doesnt means its unsafe, it just means there is no third-party verification, which puts the company squarely in the crosshairs of even frivolous lawsuits. Consequently I dont see any instruction at all. Ive been involved in a couple such lawsuits in climbing, and there is big $ and all sorts of ways people misuse equipment, so its no surprise at all that this is slow to start in hunting. Whats worse, The youtubers are full of both good and terrible advice, and its more or less impossible for a novice to tell the difference. Even in climbing, manufacturers are not providing detailed instructions on climbing techniques beyond the most basic stuff—that is left up to organizations formed by coalitions of manufacturers as well as professional guides, etc…which more or less don't exist in this application.

 

[fry0083]

It's the XOP Holiday and has lineman loops. I used one last season and for a tree stand they are great. No way I'd go back to a full body harness. If you're "hybrid" hunting they aren't comfortable to "sit" in (like a saddle) but if you're standing or seated on a seat, it's good to go. I repelled using it most days. It's a simple, light, and well designed minimalist harness.

THE HOLIDAY ®

Ultralight hybrid harness built for performance A necessity for hunters who insist on a harness with an excellent weight-to-comfort ratio! THE HOLIDAY is a harness built for hybrid hunting. The wide, comfortable waist belt is ideal for all body types and adjustable leg loops adapt to clothing...

xopoutdoors.com

Any durability concerns? Thinking about snagging one of these. Between it and the Dryad Killdeer.

 

[JCMCUBIC]

I don't have any durability concerns with it. I repelled using it most days I hunted out of it and didn't feel concerned at all. It doesn't take much abuse or wear, is a pretty simple design, and unless there was wear on it that started fraying or stitching was failing, I don't a reason to be concerned.

I'll still use a traditional saddle instead of it when I'm using a platform rather than stand, but I'll never wear a full body harness again.

 

[TaperPin]

I worked for years on McMansion framing and exterior trim with a rock climbing harness since it’s much more user friendly than a full OSHA harness and it’s what I was familiar with. I wore the rock harness under Carhartts with the attachment loop pulled out the zipper when needed. In areas with OSHA on-site inspections I had to switch to full harnesses for most of the last decade. Full harnesses are designed to be idiot proof, and they are more or less. When you aren’t required to follow OSHA I’d pick rock climbing/arborist gear every time. However, that makes you the single point of good judgement to make it work safely. It’s like reloading, if you go away from the standard way of doing things, it requires good judgement and that requires some experience looking into specifics and learning from others before you. The biggest thing that will save your bacon is learning how much of a fall will kill you, and minimize that distance at every opportunity. Rock harnesses also require good judgement with how they are worn or you can quite easily slip out if upside down. Beer belly dad bods make their use questionable. You also have to have a rescue plan - more than one climber has fallen and died hanging upside down for extended periods.

For a simple harness that doesn’t need to act as a seat, just fall protection, I’d look at bare bone ultralight harnesses, a simple prusik with long enough tail to put the knot behind me as a rope grab and a simple single dynamic rope - its light weight, easy to adjust so you have full range of motion, yet you won’t have far to fall. Harness setups with a lot of slack in the line require a screamer to break the fall. You have to plan for how you’ll self rescue if there is a fall and have that gear on you or you hang there until someone misses you. Light weight harnesses are very uncomfortable when supporting your weight.

How Not To is a great information source about what things and people actually break at with actual break tests. It’s light on positioning gear, but there are some good nuggets in there and more arborist stuff all the time. This video is how an experienced climber had a harness failure, but the other videos are equally good and explain a lot.

Anyone using a half harness would learn a lot by going to an indoor rock climbing wall and getting a feel for how the harness was intended to be used, then developing a system that works for your situation. It reinforces how you don’t want any more slack than absolutely needed as you fall.

 

[JCMCUBIC]

... you don’t want any more slack than absolutely needed as you fall.

That's the summation of what I try to do. Always stay attached and minimal slack. Basically a fall should just pull me into the tree.

 

[LostArra]

Back when I first started using a RC harness I setup about 3' off the ground and went thru all sorts of gyrations trying to get upside down. It wasn't easy and it was easy to get upright again. Falling completely out of the harness is also unlikely if you put any thought into your harness adjustment and tether setup.

RC harness may not work for everyone but also just hunting from trees may not be for everyone. If you're the least bit nervous about it, don't do it. It's supposed to be fun.

 

[BBob]

Be careful up there. A 10 foot fall can be pretty serious, especially alone in the woods, and a surprisingly short fall onto static equipment can break stuff that may seem strong. And beware taking advice on life critical equipment from strangers, online or otherwise.

You never want to fall on static gear, not even 6”. It’ll hurt and break you and as said your gear might even fail. If someone fell 10’ on a static line I’d be surprised if they could even function after the fall. They’d likely be in a world of hurt.

If you want some education search for “fall factor”. Petzl has a lot of great information as far as safety.

The Dangers of Short Static Falls

I was going to post this in response to an ongoing thread but think it deserves more attention. This is a great read for everyone on this forum just as a reminder of how short falls on static systems can be devastating...

saddlehunter.com

 

[Macintosh]

@BBob yes, but that is going to be equal between full body harnesses and sit harnesses, with the sit harness maybe having the advantage of more easily keeping the slack out of a tether simply because its easier to reach “in the moment”—note how the guy in the video I posted earlier has people set up to most easily manipulate the prussik as an example. Also, having been involved in design and testing of climbing equipment for several decades, I just don’t think the potential is there in tree stand hunting to make the activity nearly as susceptible to genuinely hard falls (ie the type where equipment fails) as climbing is. In general, I think the equipment in tree stand hunting is not the safety issue, it’s people by and large having little clue how it all works and what the limitations really are, and consequently placing their worry where it is not justified, while all but ignoring where the real danger is—which imo is not really understanding or even trying to understand basic safety systems, while worrying about how strong various pieces of equipment are. And I cant blame anyone, there is next to zero “reviewed and vetted” info available for people who want to learn.

 

[BBob]

^ For sure. Anytime I read these threads I see where there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding of the systems.

FWIW I don't do a lot of stand hunting, my experience comes from many years spent in the climbing world. I've never used anything but climbing harnesses and gear in stands because it is what I know and what I can keep myself safe with.

 

[cornfedkiller]

You never want to fall on static gear, not even 6”. It’ll hurt and break you and as said your gear might even fail. If someone fell 10’ on a static line I’d be surprised if they could even function after the fall. They’d likely be in a world of hurt.

If you want some education search for “fall factor”. Petzl has a lot of great information as far as safety.

The Dangers of Short Static Falls

I was going to post this in response to an ongoing thread but think it deserves more attention. This is a great read for everyone on this forum just as a reminder of how short falls on static systems can be devastating...

saddlehunter.com

I am guessing the HSS tree rope that I'm using is a static rope..

Rope Style Treestrap

Continental US orders typically delivers in 3-5 business days *Northern and Western State orders may take 4-6 business days. The 9' long Rope Style Treestrap replaces your current tree strap and serves as an effective LifeLine for climbing style tree stands. The Rope Style Treestrap makes...

huntersafetysystem.com

Based on what you are saying, I should probably spend the money and get myself a piece of dynamic rope to replace that HSS strap?

 

[Mtn_Nomad]

Id look into a Dryad KillDeer or the XOPA holiday. The linesman loops are a great addition.

Another option would be a tree saddle which is my preferred method. ANYTHING over a full body harness

 

[BBob]

I am guessing the HSS tree rope that I'm using is a static rope..

Rope Style Treestrap

Continental US orders typically delivers in 3-5 business days *Northern and Western State orders may take 4-6 business days. The 9' long Rope Style Treestrap replaces your current tree strap and serves as an effective LifeLine for climbing style tree stands. The Rope Style Treestrap makes...

huntersafetysystem.com

Based on what you are saying, I should probably spend the money and get myself a piece of dynamic rope to replace that HSS strap?

Yeah they don't say if it's static or dynamic so for safety sake I'd assume it's static. If it were me I'd want to be sure I was using a dynamic system. Either replace the rope or get a new setup from Petzl or someone that tells you exactly what it is. This is one from the climbing side of Petzl. They have other models for climbing and other models offered from the Professional line as well

CONNECT ADJUST - Lanyards | Petzl USA

Petzl USA. Adjustable single lanyard for climbing and mountaineering

www.petzl.com

There are also energy absorbers you can add to existing static systems:

ABSORBICA® - Lanyards-and-energy-absorbers | Petzl USA

Petzl USA. Compact energy absorber

www.petzl.com

 

[cornfedkiller]

Yeah they don't say if it's static or dynamic so for safety sake I'd assume it's static. If it were me I'd want to be sure I was using a dynamic system. Either replace the rope or get a new setup from Petzl or someone that tells you exactly what it is. This is one from the climbing side of Petzl. They have other models for climbing and other models offered from the Professional line as well

CONNECT ADJUST - Lanyards | Petzl USA

Petzl USA. Adjustable single lanyard for climbing and mountaineering

www.petzl.com

There are also energy absorbers you can add to existing static systems:

ABSORBICA® - Lanyards-and-energy-absorbers | Petzl USA

Petzl USA. Compact energy absorber

www.petzl.com

Can I get a chunk of rope like in that first link and use a prussic knot on it like I'm currently doing? The less metal to metal contact in a treestand, the better!

 

[Macintosh]

That hss rope is nylon, and it is not a dynamic rope. But…someone tell me where you are going to introduce a true free-fall dynamic drop onto a tether? Not a swing, not a scrape, a true drop. absent a true free-fall drop onto it with your full body weight, it's a non-issue. keep it hitched around the tree above where its anchored to your body, keep it relatively snug, and it'll be fine. This is exactly the same with a full body harness and a sit harness.

This video shows the sort oif factor 2 falls to stay away from. I'm not really seeing how to replicate a fall like this from a treestand.

 

[BBob]

But…someone tell me where you are going to introduce a true free-fall dynamic drop onto a tether? Not a swing, not a scrape, a true drop. absent a true free-fall drop onto it with your full body weight, it's a non-issue. keep it hitched around the tree above where its anchored to your body, keep it relatively snug, and it'll be fine. This is exactly the same with a full body harness and a sit harness.

I’d agree but tell me how many times you have seen or heard of people finding a way to do something stupid, something they never should have done and fooked themselves up? Happens all the freaking time.

 

[Upwolf]

I am surprised that I don't hear a lot of guys talking about the petzl dual connect adjust.

I've use it a bunch for sport/trad climbing to go indirect to anchors and indvidual bolts/pieces. It also works really well in aid climbing and I've used it a bunch instead of using a fifi hook or the like. (getting closer to your high piece). This solves the issue of falling onto a static PAS, prusik, hollow block in combination of a static lanyard or whatever people are using in stands.

As far as using a climbing harness in a tree stand. I'm almost fairly certain Misty Mountain makes several harnesses that have a full strength haul loop (not gear loops....). But I can't find that information on their website. I'll have to look through my bin of old gear and see if that's true.

 

[Macintosh]

@BBob thats a fair point, but throwing a different product at it never eliminates that. At what point is it reasonable to consider a safety tool “fine” when balancing give and take, and looking objectively at the consequences versus likelihood of various problems? Risk=the combination of consequence and likelihood. Bottom line is the equipment works fine if used with a few basic rules that are extremely easy to understand and manage. Reducing the odds of catastrophe in the event of misuse is good, but when theres tradeoffs you have to start looking at what problems are more likely, what problems are inherent in various materials, and which problems are scary but really unlikely. Yes, a dynamic tether will reduce impact if someone finds some way to get above it and whip onto it…but I think thats pretty darn unlikely, and the fact that not a single tether rope sold specifically for tree stand hunting is dynamic, suggests to me that the companies whose name will be on a lawsuit agree. I think “truly hard” falls of the type being referred to in climbing where equipment breaks, just arent really a thing hunting from a tree stand. BUT, a dynamic rope is also more susceptible to rope-on-rope friction from alternately weighting and un-weighting it while in use—dynamic ropes are intentionally not used in some applications for this exact reason. Which danger is more likely to cause a problem on a tree tether? Is the person who is going to somehow create this super hard fall thru extreme negligence going to be aware of how a dynamic rope wears against itself as it stretches repeatedly, inspect it regularly and retire it when it starts to show wear? My guess is probably not.

In this use where creating a truly hard fall would take effort coupled with some very creative misuse, it would not shock me at all if manufacturers would prefer semi-trained people use a non-dynamic tether because they feel the danger from a really hard dynamic fall is negligible, while the damage from friction caused by repeated stretch cycles would be a certainty. Its a matter of picking your poison to minimize the odds of the MOST LIKELY problems happening, without the “solution” introducing new problems.

Adjustable daisies and dynamic tethers and the like have their olace in climbing and theres not really any reason not to use most of them in a tree stand, the point is that they are different applications, and designed to address different needs and risks. Imo it makes sense to objectively look at the true risks and needs of a different application before deciding that the available equipment isnt sufficiently safe, ie a tree stand tether that isnt dynamic, linesmans loops that arent metal, etc.

 

[Upwolf]

@BBob thats a fair point, but throwing a different product at it never eliminates that. At what point is it reasonable to consider a safety tool “fine” when balancing give and take, and looking objectively at the consequences versus likelihood of various problems? Risk=the combination of consequence and likelihood. Bottom line is the equipment works fine if used with a few basic rules that are extremely easy to understand and manage. Reducing the odds of catastrophe in the event of misuse is good, but when theres tradeoffs you have to start looking at what problems are more likely, what problems are inherent in various materials, and which problems are scary but really unlikely. Yes, a dynamic tether will reduce impact if someone finds some way to get above it and whip onto it…but I think thats pretty darn unlikely, and the fact that not a single tether rope sold specifically for tree stand hunting is dynamic, suggests to me that the companies whose name will be on a lawsuit agree. I think “truly hard” falls of the type being referred to in climbing where equipment breaks, just arent really a thing hunting from a tree stand. BUT, a dynamic rope is also more susceptible to rope-on-rope friction from alternately weighting and un-weighting it while in use—dynamic ropes are intentionally not used in some applications for this exact reason. Which danger is more likely to cause a problem on a tree tether? Is the person who is going to somehow create this super hard fall thru extreme negligence going to be aware of how a dynamic rope wears against itself as it stretches repeatedly, inspect it regularly and retire it when it starts to show wear? My guess is probably not.

In this use where creating a truly hard fall would take effort coupled with some very creative misuse, it would not shock me at all if manufacturers would prefer semi-trained people use a non-dynamic tether because they feel the danger from a really hard dynamic fall is negligible, while the damage from friction caused by repeated stretch cycles would be a certainty. Its a matter of picking your poison to minimize the odds of the MOST LIKELY problems happening, without the “solution” introducing new problems.

Adjustable daisies and dynamic tethers and the like have their olace in climbing and theres not really any reason not to use most of them in a tree stand, the point is that they are different applications, and designed to address different needs and risks. Imo it makes sense to objectively look at the true risks and needs of a different application before deciding that the available equipment isnt sufficiently safe, ie a tree stand tether that isnt dynamic, linesmans loops that arent metal, etc.

(Opinion). I feel as though you are stressing this "repeated stretch cycles" of a dynamic rope leading to failure to heavily. This is exactly what these tethers are designed to do. They will lose dynamic elasticity overtime the more times you weight them. but this weighting them is not referring to body weight. This weighting them is the result of a dynamic fall. Most dynamic gear is rated to Many UIAA falls. Which is an 80kg mass falling 15.75 feet with 9.2 extra rope. Most applications out of the tree stand would result in a fall that would be rated as a factor two fall, so this many UIAA falls would lessen the life of the rope to let's say, several.

Now, unless you plan to take several large factor two falls of 20 feet out of your tree stand with a 3 foot dynamic tether, then you should be good to go. (you can rope jump a dynamic climbing rope). Or you could use a static line and break your pelvis with probably enough force generated after a 5 foot fall.

 

[Macintosh]

@Upwolf thats not correct. We are way off topic here, but 1) Im not talking about a climbing tether aka a cowstail, Im talking about a tether rope as used in a stand or saddle. 2) as a climber you are aware that nylon cuts nylon when under any weight at all—its why you dont lower through webbing, you lower thru carabiners, because the nylon rope sliding over a nylon sling under even body weight cuts it like a knife. Ever used ascenders to climb a dynamic rope? 60 or 70m below, it’s super stretchy even under body weight, even after you pull many feet of stretch out. Well, at the anchor that body-weight stretch may be an inch or less, but if that inch of movement, back and forth as you bounce and move around, is across a sling or another rope thats also under tension, guess what happens? (Hint: it cuts) Same goes for canyoneering, for a few reasons including stretch from bouncing and weighting/unweighting, dynamic rooes are not generally used, because the sawing motion caused by the rope stretching under shifting body weight causes enough movement to severely abrade itself very quickly.
When you tie a loop in a dynamic rope, pass it around a tree and run the tail-end through the loop as a tether, every time you lean back, it stretches a small amount. Stand up, and it un-stretches back. Lean back again, etc. how many times in even a short sit? Dozens if not hundreds of small amounts of stretch. Very small movements, but every single time its concentrated on the same small area of that rope. I utterly trashed a brand new climbing rope ascending it once due to this—I failed to pad the rope, and that few inches of stretch, under body-weight only, scraped entirely through the sheath at the anchor. Dumb mistake that could have been much worse, luckily it only cost me a rope.

My bringing this up is not to suggest a dynamic tether is going to break—its not. My bringing this up is to show an example of one downside of a dynamic rope that undeniably weakens it and makes it a poor choice in some applications, with the overall point being that different applications are just that—different—and the concerns in one application are not necessarily the same when used differently. You simply are not, under any circumstances, going to generate the same forces from a tree stand that the dynamic rope (tether in this case) exists to deal with. There is no case where a tree stand hunter wants to climb above their tether in a way that would cause a hard dynamic drop onto that anchor, even with a “static” tether. You just cant do it, short of intentionally recreating a climbing fall. Use a dynamic tether if you want, Im simply saying that worrying about a “hard” tree stand fall where a dynamic tether would make a difference in your safety, is sort of like worrying about a shark attack while walking on the beach…yeah, you’re near the ocean, but its not the same as being IN the ocean, so its just a different thing. In this case it’s not something worth worrying about beyond the most basic management—even if that same issue is a legit consideration in a DIFFERENT application. Tldr is that a static nylon tether rope is not a problem in a treestand, certainly not enough to scrap it and replace it with a dynamic version for only that reason. Use a dynamic one if it makes you feel better, just be aware that is an emotional thing, not based on an objective need in THIS application.