Rifle Lost in Shipping - Who Eats It?

[Ryan Avery]

I had this happen with a rifle a few years back. It took 14 days to get to me from one state away. So there is still hope.

 

[zog]

If you contact the carrier they should be able to get a hold of the last facility it was scanned at. Could be stuck because someone shoved it in a corner or couldn’t scan it. Had this happen a couple months ago.

Likely - it was scanned at a handling facility 6 days ago 200 miles from here and just keeps saying "in transit" with no new scans.

 

[Mike Islander]

Looks like everyone agrees that sender is liable. Which seems at odds with the almost universally accepted protocol to get paid before shipping a good.

Payment before shipping is half the contract requiment. The only half is delivery, which on the seller. He hasn't completed his obligation until its in the buyer's possession (or FFA). He'll get his money either way as long as he insured it properly.

 

[Crapshoot]

Give it a little more time. This has happen to me twice. Once it showed up 13 days after USPS showed it was out for delivery. Good Luck.

 

[brsnow]

Contract law isn’t that simple. Sounds like you all are working through it. It also hasn’t been very long.

 

[zog]

Payment before shipping is half the contract requiment. The only half is delivery, which on the seller. He hasn't completed his obligation until its in the buyer's possession (or FFA). He'll get his money either way as long as he insured it properly.

Interesting point - True, but the "contract requirement" could just as easily be settled in reverse order. I always send payment first, but only because it seems to be an accepted convention.

I get it - if you send the good before getting paid, you risk losing the good and never seeing your money. But isn't the risk exactly equal in the reverse, like with me on this purchase? I have sent money and now risk never seeing my gun. He already got his money. In this particular case, the risk is low since I did all the homework before sending money and we are cooperating, but the money is still gone and as yet I have nothing.

 

[Mike Islander]

Legally he owes you either the rifle (the seller's "consideration") or your money (buyer's consideration) back. Collection is a different story, but the law is cut and dry. He will get his payment for the rifle either way. If delivered, he keeps your money. If it stays lost he collects the insurance. Unless you formally waived the insurance because he said if you want it, you need to pay it, he's on the hook to get you your merchandise or refund your money. And in some cases even if you waved the insurance he's still on the hook.

 

[Billy Goat]

Filing Domestic Claims
What You Need to File
A Tracking or Label Number
The tracking or label number is found on your online label record, package label, mailing receipt, or sales receipt. Tracking and label numbers are between 13 and 34 characters.

Example: 9205 5000 0000 0000 0000 00

If you don't see a number like that, look for a string of 20, 22, 26, 30, or 34 numbers.


Proof of Value
Proof of value can include:

A sales receipt
A paid invoice or paid bill of sale
Statement of value and/or estimates of repair costs from a reputable dealer
A credit card billing statement
Receipt of costs incurred for reconstruction of non-negotiable documents
Printouts of the online transaction identifying the purchaser and seller, price paid, date of transaction, description of item purchased, and assurance that the transaction status is completed
Evidence of Insurance Purchased
Evidence of insurance includes:

The original mailing receipt issued at the time of mailing
The outer packaging showing the names and addresses of the sender and the addressee and the proper label showing that the article was sent insured
A printed electronic online label record or a computer printout from the application used to print the label and purchase the insurance
Proof of Damage
Photos that clearly show the extent of damage will help with your case. For damaged claims, you’ll also need to provide an estimate of the repair costs from a reputable dealer.

If you received something damaged, please hang onto the original packaging and the damaged item until your claim is settled. You may be asked to take them to your local Post Office™ for inspection later. Please do not reship the package.

When to File
Different mail services have different filing periods. The filing period is based on the mailing date on your receipt.

Damaged or Missing Contents
If your mailpiece arrives damaged or is missing items, you may file a claim immediately but must file no later than 60 days after the mailing date.

Lost Mail & Packages
If your mail or package does not arrive at all, file a claim in the time frame for the service you used.

Filing a Claim for Lost Items File After File Before
Priority Mail Express® 7 days 60 days
Priority Mail Express COD 15 days 60 days
Priority Mail® 15 days 60 days
Insured Mail 15 days 60 days
Collect on Delivery (COD) 15 days 60 days
Registered Mail® & Registered COD Mail 15 days 60 days
APO/FPO Priority Mail Express Military® Service 21 days 180 days
APO/FPO/DPO Insured Mail, Registered Mail (Priority Mail, First-Class Mail, First-Class Package Service - Retail, SAM, or PAL) 45 days 1 year
APO/FPO/DPO Insured Mail (Surface only) 75 days 1 year



According to this you do need to provide a proof of value. It does provide that you can show a printout of interaction between buyer and seller, so I think texts/PM's would qualify.

 

[Mike Islander]

OP doesn't need to provide anything. It's all on the sender.

 

[Scotto]

Sender...recently bought boots on line. Received them but did not fit. The vendor had supplied a pre-paid return slip. I used that and sent the boots back via UPS. Tracking stated "in transit" for almost two weeks. I contacted UPS and started a claim. Long story short, after the claim process ended, the original vendor refunded the amount paid for the boots because UPS considers the pre-paid vendor as the "sender".

 

[Catahoula]

Shipper needs to start the claim on the firearm.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Couple words of caution.

1. With UPS and FEDEX you are not buying insurance. You are buying additional declared value. Read the receipts. There is a difference.

2. Both have explicit written instructions on how to package firearms. 2" solid foam all the way around is the norm. You need to follow their instructions. They have grounds to deny if you do not follow the requirements.

3. Both consider manufacturers original shipping boxes as "one time use" only.

4. If you use a 3rd party shipper such as a Mail Box, they have the claim not you!! You have to give all your documentation to them and let them file the claim and hopefully they are as passionate about your money as you are. Again, read the receipt they give you.

5. IF there is damage, have the receiver maintain all original shipping boxes, wrapping, foam etc and ask the shipper in writing (UPS/FEDEX/USPS) to go see the packaging. Have the receiver take plenty of pics and send them to you. Hopefully, the receiver had the delivery person note damage etc at time of delivery.

6. All will want you to "prove" current value and they will try to depreciate that. You must have documentation of current replacement value.

7. They will routinely deny the claim saying you failed do to something they required or at best offer maybe 25% of declared value. Here is how to respond again in writing and this is why they only have $100 standard insurance and require the additional declared value be purchase.

Liability of shippers/carriers is controlled by the Carmack Amendment of 1906 to the Interstate Commerce Act which "makes carriers liable for the full actual loss, damage, or injury*** caused by them to property they transport and declares unlawful and void any contract, regulation or tariff, or other means of limiting liability. "

The statute codifies that a carrier is liable for damage to goods transported UNLESS it can show the damage was cause by one of the following exceptions allowed by law:

a. the act of God,
b. public enemy
c. the act of the shipper himself
d. Public Authority
e. the inherent vice or nature of the goods.

Those are the ONLY exceptions for the carrier. Since they cannot show any of those they are on the hook.

By the way, this was specifically upheld the US Supreme Court ruling in Missouri Pacific Railroad vs. Elmore & Stahl, (1964).. The above comments were taken from the Supreme Court decision.

"You can pay the claim or I will file a small claims case and then you will pay the claim, and my attorney fees and filing charges etc." (Most small claims courts do not require an attorney and pretty easy filing with minimal costs to file and have sheriff deliver claim to the shipper (UPS/FEDEX and 3rd party shipper etc.)

NOTE: Copy this statement and save it for later.

8. Depending on how you shipped it, if they deny the claim you can sue either the shipper or 3rd party in small claims court and win with above statement and copy of the US Supreme Court decision which can be downloaded. That makes your case simple normally as they cannot fight a supreme court decision. Just give the judge a copy of the decision to back up your claim.

9. Note also that 3rd party shippers often do not buy additional declared value from the shipper (UPS/FEDEX). They carry private insurance that makes filing a claim even harder. Then you are suing the shipping company, the 3rd party shipper and his insurance so you have 3 defendants.

Been there and done that.

You can show actual value by the current transaction!!!!

 

[Smid]

Interesting point - True, but the "contract requirement" could just as easily be settled in reverse order. I always send payment first, but only because it seems to be an accepted convention.

I get it - if you send the good before getting paid, you risk losing the good and never seeing your money. But isn't the risk exactly equal in the reverse, like with me on this purchase? I have sent money and now risk never seeing my gun. He already got his money. In this particular case, the risk is low since I did all the homework before sending money and we are cooperating, but the money is still gone and as yet I have nothing.

How did you pay? I make sure to use PayPal if it’s a substantial amount of money. 2 years ago I bought a $2500 mountain bike. The seller just mashed it into a box, no bubble wrap or anything. It arrived damaged to the tune of $1250 repair at the local bike shop. Filed a claim with the estimate and PayPal refunded the difference. Last year I ordered an elite bow off eBay. Same thing, seller didn’t package at all and the box was busted with cam hanging out of on my porch. PayPal refunded the money and seller had to cover return shipping.

 

[Scottyboy]

How did you pay? I make sure to use PayPal if it’s a substantial amount of money. 2 years ago I bought a $2500 mountain bike. The seller just mashed it into a box, no bubble wrap or anything. It arrived damaged to the tune of $1250 repair at the local bike shop. Filed a claim with the estimate and PayPal refunded the difference. Last year I ordered an elite bow off eBay. Same thing, seller didn’t package at all and the box was busted with cam hanging out of on my porch. PayPal refunded the money and seller had to cover return shipping.

paypal is a no go for firearms, they prohibit it. By no means would I ever use PP for a firearm, ever.

 

[Laelkhunter]

Likely - it was scanned at a handling facility 6 days ago 200 miles from here and just keeps saying "in transit" with no new scans.

There should be an arrival scan when it enters the facility, and a departure scan when it leaves the facility for the next leg of the journey. If it was scanned on arrival, but there is no departure scan, you have to assume it is still at the facility that received it.

 

[Smid]

paypal is a no go for firearms, they prohibit it. By no means would I ever use PP for a firearm, ever.

Dozens of transactions on AR15 forums, never been an issue for me. Pretty common for the seller to make a discrete invoice for payment. Better than a money order or no protection at all. Bow sales are prohibited on their terms, I didn’t have an issue getting my money back

 

[Scottyboy]

Dozens of transactions on AR15 forums, never been an issue for me. Pretty common for the seller to make a describe invoice for payment. Better than a money order or no protection at all. Bow sales are prohibited on their terms, I didn’t have an issue getting my money back

that’s a gamble I’m not willing to take, I have a hard time believing they have let dozens of detailed transactions go through for items that are clearly prohibited, not doubting you though.

postal money order you have protection.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Sender is responsible. He should have insured it for the amount you paid for it

 

[Scottyboy]

Dozens of transactions on AR15 forums, never been an issue for me. Pretty common for the seller to make a discrete invoice for payment. Better than a money order or no protection at all. Bow sales are prohibited on their terms, I didn’t have an issue getting my money back

Are you sure bows are prohibited? I thought they were OK..

 

[Smid]

Are you sure bows are prohibited? I thought they were OK..

All “weapons” are technically prohibited. There’s quite a few threads on archerytalk of accounts being suspended for bow sales. What’s your usual payment method? I like PayPal because you atleast have a chance of getting your money back as opposed to Venmo or money order where you’re screwed. Although I think this forum and ar15 has a lower risk of being screwed by the seller