Rifle ice/snow freeze eval 2025

[Formidilosus]

When are you running these trials?

As soon as the deep cold and snow comes. Usually in December.

 

[Choupique]

If I knew anyone that had one, I would include it this year.

Yall are welcome to my new-ish BACO model 70 ewss if yall ever want it for something like this. Wouldn't hurt my feelings to have it tested in ways I really can't do convienently.

It's a bare muzzle .338 win mag though...

 

[Formidilosus]

Yall are welcome to my new-ish BACO model 70 ewss if yall ever want it for something like this. Wouldn't hurt my feelings to have it tested in ways I really can't do convienently.

It's a bare muzzle .338 win mag though...

Appreciate the offer. The M70’s CRF are pretty well known commodities at this point.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Curious how a Ruger American would fair in this, since there are so many out there.

They can’t even function properly with a bit of desert sand in them, freezing them will be catastrophic I’d imagine. Just a guess though.

 

[swampy14]

Has a savage 110 been tested?
I know they moved to a closed top action with the release of the 110 trail hunter but I can see their trigger failing completely as it is exposed and not an enclosed unit like a tikka.

 

[tkabzems]

Maybe I just missed it being discussed but is the ruger hawkeye crf design that much different in these teststhan a model 70?

 

[PathFinder]

Maybe I just missed it being discussed but is the ruger hawkeye crf design that much different in these teststhan a model 70?

Here's at least a partial answer, and it's disappointing. Pulled this gun out of the safe to thread it, and the wheels got spinning. CRF, 3 position safety, easy to bed, solid scope mounting, very solid action, no extractor cut, super easy to rebarrel. Thought about spinning up a 6 UM barrel for it.
Since the triggers are usually the issue in ice tests, the M77 looked so promising. Very easy to lighten/modify, few components, not a lot of surface area for ice to stick to. The action was doused in water in a sink, then shoved in the freezer. Immediately on pulling it out, all trigger components moved freely. The bolt could be opened with a rubber mallet. Despite that, the bolt would not fire, it was frozen up badly. Maybe the open cuts on the bottom allowed a bunch of water to freeze the firing pin solid. Maybe it's the rear of the bolt. Either way, it could be tapped forward with a rubber mallet and re-cocked, but wouldn't fire for quite a while after.
I may disassemble the bolt and see if it can be mitigated, but it was pretty disappointing overall.

 

[Igloo]

Here's at least a partial answer, and it's disappointing. Pulled this gun out of the safe to thread it, and the wheels got spinning. CRF, 3 position safety, easy to bed, solid scope mounting, very solid action, no extractor cut, super easy to rebarrel. Thought about spinning up a 6 UM barrel for it.
Since the triggers are usually the issue in ice tests, the M77 looked so promising. Very easy to lighten/modify, few components, not a lot of surface area for ice to stick to. The action was doused in water in a sink, then shoved in the freezer. Immediately on pulling it out, all trigger components moved freely. The bolt could be opened with a rubber mallet. Despite that, the bolt would not fire, it was frozen up badly. Maybe the open cuts on the bottom allowed a bunch of water to freeze the firing pin solid. Maybe it's the rear of the bolt. Either way, it could be tapped forward with a rubber mallet and re-cocked, but wouldn't fire for quite a while after.
I may disassemble the bolt and see if it can be mitigated, but it was pretty disappointing overall.View attachment 1007979View attachment 1007980View attachment 1007981

Holy cow. Cool test and good idea but I'm also surprised.


Can't be lube huh? Bet you're right about enough water getting in to actually make ice, Dang.

 

[PathFinder]

Holy cow. Cool test and good idea but I'm also surprised.


Can't be lube huh? Bet you're right about enough water getting in to actually make ice, Dang.

Surprised me too. I was all set on building this up and hunting with it.
The two likely culprits are the cuts on the bottom of the bolt and the exposed cocking indicator on the back of the bolt. I could hammer it back and forth and cock it, but it took a while to drop on its own at all. Much less hard enough to set off a primer. I'll post an update after stripping the bolt to see if it can be improved.

 

[Bluumoon]

Surprised me too. I was all set on building this up and hunting with it.
The two likely culprits are the cuts on the bottom of the bolt and the exposed cocking indicator on the back of the bolt. I could hammer it back and forth and cock it, but it took a while to drop on its own at all. Much less hard enough to set off a primer. I'll post an update after stripping the bolt to see if it can be improved.

Testing it in the stock might help, or hurt. You going to be hunting in conditions it matters frequently?

 

[PathFinder]

Testing it in the stock might help, or hurt. You going to be hunting in conditions it matters frequently?

The stock would probably help a bit. I test it outside for two reasons; to give a worst case scenario, and to better diagnose what freezes up.
Sometimes, but I'm not hunting with something that struggles in those conditions when there are options that do better. The whole premise of this thread is that there are guns that work better than others in icy conditions, and to find what those are. The Ruger trigger has a lot of potential if the firing pin and bolt can be resolved. But it's not worth trying to solve bottom metal, a stock, and everything else that isn't available if it won't handle ice as well as a Tikka.

 

[Formidilosus]

Here's at least a partial answer, and it's disappointing. Pulled this gun out of the safe to thread it, and the wheels got spinning. CRF, 3 position safety, easy to bed, solid scope mounting, very solid action, no extractor cut, super easy to rebarrel. Thought about spinning up a 6 UM barrel for it.
Since the triggers are usually the issue in ice tests, the M77 looked so promising. Very easy to lighten/modify, few components, not a lot of surface area for ice to stick to. The action was doused in water in a sink, then shoved in the freezer. Immediately on pulling it out, all trigger components moved freely. The bolt could be opened with a rubber mallet. Despite that, the bolt would not fire, it was frozen up badly. Maybe the open cuts on the bottom allowed a bunch of water to freeze the firing pin solid. Maybe it's the rear of the bolt. Either way, it could be tapped forward with a rubber mallet and re-cocked, but wouldn't fire for quite a while after.
I may disassemble the bolt and see if it can be mitigated, but it was pretty disappointing overall.View attachment 1007979View attachment 1007980View attachment 1007981

The other issue is (which I did not realize until @longrangelead pointed it out) most/lots of M77’s are not controlled round feed.

 

[1000yards]

The other issue is (which I did not realize until @longrangelead pointed it out) most/lots of M77’s are not controlled round feed.

Is that just the difference between the original push feed M77 and the crf mark II? Or is it because most mark II's don't function correctly?

 

[Castle Rock]

Yes, the M77 was never intended to be controlled feed, and most MK 2s just don’t.
I spent a fair bit of time trying to get a few of them to work and sometimes they did and often they didn’t.
That isn’t to say that was problematic, they always functioned but it wasn’t always controlled.

 

[Formidilosus]

Is that just the difference between the original push feed M77 and the crf mark II? Or is it because most mark II's don't function correctly?

Both. I didn’t realize that there were any that were push feed. I knew that very few of them were timed to CRF correctly.

 

[1000yards]

Both. I didn’t realize that there were any that were push feed. I knew that very few of them were timed to CRF correctly.

Ouch, I've never paid attention to that, now I'm going to check all my M77s. Is that something a competent gunsmith could fix?

 

[Formidilosus]

Ouch, I've never paid attention to that, now I'm going to check all my M77s. Is that something a competent gunsmith could fix?

Sure. But there aren’t very many “competent” gunsmiths, and they aren’t inexpensive.

 

[RWT]

Sure. But there aren’t very many “competent” gunsmiths, and they aren’t inexpensive.

I needed that this morning. Thank you. Crap week full of layoffs with people staying that I wouldn’t let walk my dog. I have to remind myself
“Wolves are not concerned with the opinions of sheep”.

There are a lot of Spicoli gunsmiths.

 

[1000yards]

Sure. But there aren’t very many “competent” gunsmiths, and they aren’t inexpensive.

I just checked all my crf actions. With the M77s the rim doesn't slide underneath the extractor until about halfway through pushing the bolt closed, and it's nowhere near completely underneath the extractor -just enough so that if I started pulling the bolt back it would pull the cartridge with it. The cartridge is not fully seated underneath that extractor until about the last 15% of closing the bolt. Is this what you're talking about? My CZ 550s, Husqvarna 1640s and sporterised 98s all function similarly although they are smoother than the M77s -the cartridges have a little more "pop up" with the M77s, and gradually slide up with everything else.

Whatever the situation might be, I'm guessing @longrangelead could fix/improve it?

 

[longrangelead]

I just checked all my crf actions. With the M77s the rim doesn't slide underneath the extractor until about halfway through pushing the bolt closed, and it's nowhere near completely underneath the extractor -just enough so that if I started pulling the bolt back it would pull the cartridge with it. The cartridge is not fully seated underneath that extractor until about the last 15% of closing the bolt. Is this what you're talking about? My CZ 550s, Husqvarna 1640s and sporterised 98s all function similarly although they are smoother than the M77s -the cartridges have a little more "pop up" with the M77s, and gradually slide up with everything else.

Whatever the situation might be, I'm guessing @longrangelead could fix/improve it?

I happen to have both M70/M77 Mk2 in 308 at the shop currently.

The mag box and follower is part of how the CRF operates. you can see the M70 (left) follower is full length and is slightly higher than the feed rails. This supports the last cartridge all the way into the chamber. The rim still isn't 100% in the bolt face, but enough.

The Ruger follower slopes off in front and has a rib that keeps it below the feed lips. This allows the case to drop down a bit just before it pops back up going into the chamber.

I don't have a M98 or a Marshall on hand to compare. The Marshall is a different animal being mag fed. Coming straight up from a mag solves half the equation from the start.

below is where the case pops up in the bolt throw. With a round below, the M70 pops up further into the bolt much earlier in the stroke, basically as soon as the feed rails release it.
The Ruger doesn't pop up until it starts to enter the chamber, even then, it's not as much as the M70.


The little bump in the mag box of the M70 kicks the rim out from under the feed lip in conjunction with the cut in the lip.
The Ruger needs that and is evident in the case staying under the rail another ¼" to ⅜" .
There are lots of things at play. Follower spring pressure, feed rail timing/geometry, bolt face/rim interface and angle, extractor clearance and shape and of course bullet shape to list a few.

To be fair, this is all slow feed function. At speed, they both function very similar because the bolt has constant contact on the back of the case.
The importance of CRF is the last part of the stroke anyway that prevents a double feed.

Rugers have more play in everything and just feel clunkier.
Could it be improved? probably.
Does it matter for how they actually get used? probably not.

It would take high speed video to see what is actually going on at true field operation speed.

Maybe I can 4k some operation and slow it down and see what's going on.

The Marshall with a mag makes a lot of sense...