Required Precision for Training Rifle?

[TX_Diver]

One of the recent S2H podcasts mentioned just shooting cheap ball ammo for positional practice which got me thinking a bit as I have a lot more 55gr FMJ ammo on hand than 77 TMKs.

Yesterday I went to the range and shot some larger groups to see what they'd look like and how that might work for the "hunting rifle drill" https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/

Both Wolf Gold and PMC Bronze shoot a little over 3MOA from my Tikka at 100 yards. Prone with the OEM stock. I don't have a RokBlok that I lug around with me so I made a RokBox by duct taping an AG pint sized game changer (standard fill, not lite like I wrote on the target) to a full ammo box for the front, and used a molinator in the back. OEM stock. SWFA 6x.

3MOA is probably not going to be the cause of me missing the offhand target but it seems like as the targets get smaller it would have an impact? Especially on the prone target, but the main point of this would be practicing other than prone so that's less of a concern.

How would you guys factor in a 3-4MOA initial group size when you practice positional stuff?

 

[Lawnboi]

I can get along with a 1.5-1.8moa rifle for training but beyond that it starts getting frustrating.

It also depends what your training. And what size target you want to hit.

Unsupported practice with cheaper ammo seems useful but 3moa is approaching a little ridiculous for a bolt rifle setup.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm not going to get into the argument of how much of a difference it does or doesnt make beyond saying 3 MOA mechanical precision would drive me nuts and I wouldn't deal with it.

My impacts are on the edge of the circles in the hunting drill enough with rifles that shoot 1 MOA 10 shot groups. It's easy to not blame the rifle in those situations. The prone target is 2 moa, missing it with a 3 moa setup when I break a good shot would annoy me.

$0.75 ADI factory ammo is 1 MOA in my current rifle. I'm not going cheaper if it means compromising significantly in precision.

 

[Macintosh]

I would maybe try to just adjust the size of the circles on your hunting rifle drill. So if you have a 1.5MOA gun and the prone target is 2moa, then you are adding in an additional 0.5moa to account for your wobble, position, speed, npoa, etc...so on a 3moa gun try using a 3.5moa prone target, 4.5moa seated/supported, 6.5moa seated, and 8.5moa offhand. Have not tried this, not sure it works this way, but intuitively to me it seems like building in the same "wobble-amount" on top of your guns precision should accomplish the same thing?

Maybe someone with access to the WEZ could plug in the numbers comparing a 1.5moa gun to a 3moa gun, and adjust target size so hit-rate is the same, and confirm if this is roughly the equivalent??

Also, I guess as a diagnostic or self-analysis tool, as long as you are consistent it may not matter? (as long as you arent bothered by it in principle as WG mentioned)

 

[ddowning]

I agree with the above. If it doesn't frustrate the hell out of you, make the targets bigger to compensate. I have a hard time dealing with 3 moa mechanical precision. Anything over 1 moa is pretty frustrating, honestly, and a true 1/2 moa rifle makes you feel superhuman with what you can hit. Too bad true half moa rifles are nearly nonexistent.

 

[Dave0317]

I would maybe try to just adjust the size of the circles on your hunting rifle drill. So if you have a 1.5MOA gun and the prone target is 2moa, then you are adding in an additional 0.5moa to account for your wobble, position, speed, npoa, etc...so on a 3moa gun try using a 3.5moa prone target, 4.5moa seated/supported, 6.6moa seated, and 8.5moa offhand. Have not tried this, not sure it works this way, but intuitively to me it seems like building in the same "wobble-amount" on top of your guns precision should accomplish the same thing?

Maybe someone with access to the WEZ could plug in the numbers comparing a 1.5moa gun to a 3moa gun, and adjust target size so hit-rate is the same, and confirm if this is roughly the equivalent??

Also, I guess as a diagnostic or self-analysis tool, as long as you are consistent it may not matter? (as long as you arent bothered by it in principle as WG mentioned)

Sounds like a fun test someone could run.

Maybe overlay the larger circles over the original hunting drill target sizes, and shoot the drill several times to see what percentage land in or out of the circle, and how does it compare to when the same shooter runs the drill with a honest 1-1.5 MOA gun and the original sizes only.

I bet you would notice a difference on the prone shots and little to no difference on standing unsupported shots. Other positions may fall somewhere in between. Just a theory though.

 

[TX_Diver]

Sounds like a fun test someone could run.

Maybe overlay the larger circles over the original hunting drill target sizes, and shoot the drill several times to see what percentage land in or out of the circle, and how does it compare to when the same shooter runs the drill with a honest 1-1.5 MOA gun and the original sizes only.

I bet you would notice a difference on the prone shots and little to no difference on standing unsupported shots. Other positions may fall somewhere in between. Just a theory though.

I’ll do it but my typical score is 8-12 so I may not be the best representative for it. It’s still practice at least for me though.

 

[E.Shell]

IMO, if the practice ammo isn't as good as you are, you're not learning anything shooting it.

 

[hereinaz]

If it means you shoot more, use it. The difference between precision and accuracy bears out here.

Shoot it for positional stuff at 100, just adjust your mind and targets to accomodate a 3moa baseline. It’s predictable. That ammo isn’t as precise, but you can still practice acccuracy- which is whether you can center that 3 moa group over the vital area.

You will feel like a champ when you shoot better ammo.

When I shoot my AR, I only care about hits and practice for speed/accuracy. I think that’s the same thing.

 

[Formidilosus]

One of the recent S2H podcasts mentioned just shooting cheap ball ammo for positional practice which got me thinking a bit as I have a lot more 55gr FMJ ammo on hand than 77 TMKs.

Yesterday I went to the range and shot some larger groups to see what they'd look like and how that might work for the "hunting rifle drill" https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/

Both Wolf Gold and PMC Bronze shoot a little over 3MOA from my Tikka at 100 yards. Prone with the OEM stock. I don't have a RokBlok that I lug around with me so I made a RokBox by duct taping an AG pint sized game changer (standard fill, not lite like I wrote on the target) to a full ammo box for the front, and used a molinator in the back. OEM stock. SWFA 6x.

3MOA is probably not going to be the cause of me missing the offhand target but it seems like as the targets get smaller it would have an impact? Especially on the prone target, but the main point of this would be practicing other than prone so that's less of a concern.

How would you guys factor in a 3-4MOA initial group size when you practice positional stuff?

For prone on the hunting rifle drill it isn’t the best. For offhand and seated positions- you won’t notice much difference in hit rates.


However, my suggestion for positional practice is to switch to an NRA B8 bullseye target like below and shoot for score. 10 round strings, 100 possible points. You are not shooting for a group, you are shooting for score.

 

[TX_Diver]

For prone on the hunting rifle drill it isn’t the best. For offhand and seated positions- you won’t notice much difference in hit rates.


However, my suggestion for positional practice is to switch to an NRA B8 bullseye target like below and shoot for score. 10 round strings, 100 possible points. You are not shooting for a group, you are shooting for score.

View attachment 778594

10-4. Looks like I can print some of those.

Do you shoot that at 100 yards? Or at 25 yards like it says on there? 10 ring is 3.36" it looks like.

Any adjustment for 55fmj with a ~3-4MOA baseline group size or not really an issue even for this?

 

[Formidilosus]

10-4. Looks like I can print some of those.

Just make sure they print sized correctly.

Do you shoot that at 100 yards? Or at 25 yards like it says on there? 10 ring is 3.36" it looks like.

100 yards. A B8 is an NRA 25 yard bullseye pistol target. Near perfect for 100 yard rifle practice work.

Any adjustment for 55fmj with a ~3-4MOA baseline group size or not really an issue even for this?

Nope. Just shoot for score and practice to improve. When you get to consistently shooting 98 and above out of 100y, swap to good ammo and see what your score and difference is. Then start adding time components to the strings.

 

[TaperPin]

At 3 MOA you are missing out on much of the feedback in practice. If a single shot is 2 MOA off center, you will never know if your hold when the rifle fires is 1/2 MOA or 3-1/2 MOA off, or somewhere in between. That’s not helpful. You might as well be dry firing. If it takes large group sizes to get feedback, rather than saving money, it’s costing many times as much.

 

[AK4570]

Well, since properly executed dry fire is actually a helpful training technique, perhaps the OP isn't accruing a significant deficit. And, since the efficient killing of our targets is the reason for our practice, it would behoove us to recall that ark loads of creatures have been rendered to meat by ammunition and weapons that could barely maintain a 3-4 MOA standard. Not to mention the legions of 2-legged critters that have achieved room temperature world wide at similar or lesser accuracy standards.

Best regards,
John (who loves accurate rifles just as much as Col. Whelen)

 

[magtech]

I reload and practice what i shoot with. I am of the mindset practice the same way you hunt.

As soon as i start changing variables i start having to think about my process.

Is my scope adjusted for this load?
Is my bc calc on this load or a target load?
Did I bring the right ammo?
Whats my accuracy right now?
Is this load the one that shoots to the left or my practice load?

Things like this push my confidence down and distracts me from the shot.

I find one good bullet combo. Buy the components when you buy the rifle/barrel to cover the expected barrel life and never get distracted with the load.

 

[TX_Diver]

Did the Hunter Drill (I think that's what it's called) 2x today.

First time with handloaded 77 SMK blems (1.2"ish 10 rd group I think).
Second time with PMC 55gr FMJ dialed .2 Mils down. PMC was on the right in the first post.

I shot 11/20 with the hand loads and 7/20 with the 55 FMJ. Last time I shot this with 77TMK hand load roughly 2 weeks ago (which have the same zero based on a 10rd group) as the 77 SMKs I also shot an 11/20.

Looking at it the only point I'd very likely have picked up by shooting the SMKs was shot 5 (just outside bottom right prone).

It's plausible I may have picked up some of the points from Shot 4 of the seated unsupported (outside the left) and shots 3 or 4 of Seated supported, but I'm not confident enough to say that 100%.

Sample size of one, so hard to take much from this, but I'll try it again in a few weeks and post the results then too.

Initial impression is there is some value to this still with the 55 gr fmj and if I can do it 3 or 4 times with each I could probably figure out what I'd need to scale the targets to for it to be equivalent (I know... lot of work, but less work than reloading!)

 

[TX_Diver]

 

[ddowning]

Shoot a prone 30 round group with both. The increase in group size from good ammo to bad is the necessary target size increase to make them comparable.

 

[TX_Diver]

11/20 with SMK and 12/20 with fmj today

I could be off by 1 if I switched any shots but the last 5 in a row with decent ammo has been a score of 11 or 12.

 

[TX_Diver]

Did not count the one I timed out on.