Required Precision for Training Rifle?

[TX_Diver]

One of the recent S2H podcasts mentioned just shooting cheap ball ammo for positional practice which got me thinking a bit as I have a lot more 55gr FMJ ammo on hand than 77 TMKs.

Yesterday I went to the range and shot some larger groups to see what they'd look like and how that might work for the "hunting rifle drill" https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/

Both Wolf Gold and PMC Bronze shoot a little over 3MOA from my Tikka at 100 yards. Prone with the OEM stock. I don't have a RokBlok that I lug around with me so I made a RokBox by duct taping an AG pint sized game changer (standard fill, not lite like I wrote on the target) to a full ammo box for the front, and used a molinator in the back. OEM stock. SWFA 6x.

3MOA is probably not going to be the cause of me missing the offhand target but it seems like as the targets get smaller it would have an impact? Especially on the prone target, but the main point of this would be practicing other than prone so that's less of a concern.

How would you guys factor in a 3-4MOA initial group size when you practice positional stuff?

 

[Lawnboi]

I can get along with a 1.5-1.8moa rifle for training but beyond that it starts getting frustrating.

It also depends what your training. And what size target you want to hit.

Unsupported practice with cheaper ammo seems useful but 3moa is approaching a little ridiculous for a bolt rifle setup.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm not going to get into the argument of how much of a difference it does or doesnt make beyond saying 3 MOA mechanical precision would drive me nuts and I wouldn't deal with it.

My impacts are on the edge of the circles in the hunting drill enough with rifles that shoot 1 MOA 10 shot groups. It's easy to not blame the rifle in those situations. The prone target is 2 moa, missing it with a 3 moa setup when I break a good shot would annoy me.

$0.75 ADI factory ammo is 1 MOA in my current rifle. I'm not going cheaper if it means compromising significantly in precision.

 

[Macintosh]

I would maybe try to just adjust the size of the circles on your hunting rifle drill. So if you have a 1.5MOA gun and the prone target is 2moa, then you are adding in an additional 0.5moa to account for your wobble, position, speed, npoa, etc...so on a 3moa gun try using a 3.5moa prone target, 4.5moa seated/supported, 6.5moa seated, and 8.5moa offhand. Have not tried this, not sure it works this way, but intuitively to me it seems like building in the same "wobble-amount" on top of your guns precision should accomplish the same thing?

Maybe someone with access to the WEZ could plug in the numbers comparing a 1.5moa gun to a 3moa gun, and adjust target size so hit-rate is the same, and confirm if this is roughly the equivalent??

Also, I guess as a diagnostic or self-analysis tool, as long as you are consistent it may not matter? (as long as you arent bothered by it in principle as WG mentioned)

 

[ddowning]

I agree with the above. If it doesn't frustrate the hell out of you, make the targets bigger to compensate. I have a hard time dealing with 3 moa mechanical precision. Anything over 1 moa is pretty frustrating, honestly, and a true 1/2 moa rifle makes you feel superhuman with what you can hit. Too bad true half moa rifles are nearly nonexistent.

 

[Dave0317]

I would maybe try to just adjust the size of the circles on your hunting rifle drill. So if you have a 1.5MOA gun and the prone target is 2moa, then you are adding in an additional 0.5moa to account for your wobble, position, speed, npoa, etc...so on a 3moa gun try using a 3.5moa prone target, 4.5moa seated/supported, 6.6moa seated, and 8.5moa offhand. Have not tried this, not sure it works this way, but intuitively to me it seems like building in the same "wobble-amount" on top of your guns precision should accomplish the same thing?

Maybe someone with access to the WEZ could plug in the numbers comparing a 1.5moa gun to a 3moa gun, and adjust target size so hit-rate is the same, and confirm if this is roughly the equivalent??

Also, I guess as a diagnostic or self-analysis tool, as long as you are consistent it may not matter? (as long as you arent bothered by it in principle as WG mentioned)

Sounds like a fun test someone could run.

Maybe overlay the larger circles over the original hunting drill target sizes, and shoot the drill several times to see what percentage land in or out of the circle, and how does it compare to when the same shooter runs the drill with a honest 1-1.5 MOA gun and the original sizes only.

I bet you would notice a difference on the prone shots and little to no difference on standing unsupported shots. Other positions may fall somewhere in between. Just a theory though.

 

[TX_Diver]

Sounds like a fun test someone could run.

Maybe overlay the larger circles over the original hunting drill target sizes, and shoot the drill several times to see what percentage land in or out of the circle, and how does it compare to when the same shooter runs the drill with a honest 1-1.5 MOA gun and the original sizes only.

I bet you would notice a difference on the prone shots and little to no difference on standing unsupported shots. Other positions may fall somewhere in between. Just a theory though.

I’ll do it but my typical score is 8-12 so I may not be the best representative for it. It’s still practice at least for me though.

 

[E.Shell]

IMO, if the practice ammo isn't as good as you are, you're not learning anything shooting it.

 

[hereinaz]

If it means you shoot more, use it. The difference between precision and accuracy bears out here.

Shoot it for positional stuff at 100, just adjust your mind and targets to accomodate a 3moa baseline. It’s predictable. That ammo isn’t as precise, but you can still practice acccuracy- which is whether you can center that 3 moa group over the vital area.

You will feel like a champ when you shoot better ammo.

When I shoot my AR, I only care about hits and practice for speed/accuracy. I think that’s the same thing.