Reps and Strength/Power training

[5MilesBack]

I have seen too many guys say, "I'd love to go in there but there's no way I'm packing an animal out of there" and for my preferences that is unacceptable.

There's something to be said about "mind over matter". This is one reason why I rarely hunt with anyone else.......I don't really care whether they want to pack something out of a place or not.......I'm going in......alone if need be. Your mind can overcome a lot of your physical shortcomings.......if you demand that.

I'm not discouraging folks from working out and getting in shape, I just don't think the average hunter needs PhD's in physiology, workoutology, and fitnessology.

 

[Poser]

I'm not discouraging folks from working out and getting in shape, I just don't think the average hunter needs PhD's in physiology, workoutology, and fitnessology.

But then, what are we supposed to argue about on the physical fitness forum?

 

[ohhiitznik]

It would be boring without the info being tossed around on here!

 

[Darren Best]

While throwing on a pack and hiking hills or bleachers can and does work, it won't maximize your time efficiently.

Having some knowledge about training zones and effects will.

Most of us here know the basic difference between slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers. As I pointed out earlier, we have been led to believe we can train these two systems from the top down, not so. They must be trained from the bottom up.

The two different systems work, process and burn their fuel very differently. We do use slow twitch fibers while we are using fast twitch, but the reverse is not true. Also when we are at or above the anaerobic threshold, the slow twitch fibers are no longer getting the training effect that we need to see.

The threshold for this is much lower than we think, reference the nose breathing test.

Knowledge is power, knowing more will make you better by allowing you to train smarter and harder at the appropriate times with few or no setbacks.

 

[onpoint]

There's something to be said about "mind over matter". This is one reason why I rarely hunt with anyone else.......I don't really care whether they want to pack something out of a place or not.......I'm going in......alone if need be. Your mind can overcome a lot of your physical shortcomings.......if you demand that.

I'm not discouraging folks from working out and getting in shape, I just don't think the average hunter needs PhD's in physiology, workoutology, and fitnessology.

That's a great point about mind over matter 5milesback and I totally agree but there IS a point when the body simply shuts down if pushed too hard. A good friend of mine proved your mind over matter point the day we nailed a monster bull a long ways from camp and managed to handle the pack out. BUT he was then f'd for the next day and a half and so f'd for the rest of the trip that he couldn't/wouldn't go any further from camp than a couple miles. I cut my tag and he didn't, not because of my fitness but because I got lucky that first morning but we then needed to get even further back to find him an animal he just wasn't capable of this whereas I was. This guy was not unfit, he played hockey a few times per week and "just hiked" for about 6 weeks leading up to the trip but the pack out killed him.

 

[Arbutusbucks]

BUT he was then f'd for the next day and a half and so f'd for the rest of the trip that he couldn't/wouldn't go any further from camp than a couple miles. I cut my tag and he didn't, not because of my fitness but because I got lucky that first morning but we then needed to get even further back to find him an animal he just wasn't capable of this whereas I was. This guy was not unfit.

I am pretty sure I may be in the same boat with my hunting partner this fall. I workout all year round. I am now doing hunting specific prep twice a week along with my regular stuff. Everytime I call my friend to workout or hike with a pack he bails. As you said, he is not out of shape but... being able tp run a 5k and working out once a week is different from a 8 day grinder of a hunt. If by day 4 he is hurting I may just leave em and bivy from there. Then again maybe he will surprise me and ramp it up in time.

As far as mental toughness and mind over matter. I think that mental toughness is built upon preparation, whether it be mind or body, or in this case...both. Everyday you wake up and fight the urge to stay in bed instead of going for a run or to the gym builds mental toughness. Everytime you say no to pizza Fridays at the office builds mental toughness. Then one day you find yourself overlooking a "hell hole" with an animal down there and you just nut up and send it.

 

[onpoint]

I am pretty sure I may be in the same boat with my hunting partner this fall. I workout all year round. I am now doing hunting specific prep twice a week along with my regular stuff. Everytime I call my friend to workout or hike with a pack he bails. As you said, he is not out of shape but... being able tp run a 5k and working out once a week is different from a 8 day grinder of a hunt. If by day 4 he is hurting I may just leave em and bivy from there. Then again maybe he will surprise me and ramp it up in time.

As far as mental toughness and mind over matter. I think that mental toughness is built upon preparation, whether it be mind or body, or in this case...both. Everyday you wake up and fight the urge to stay in bed instead of going for a run or to the gym builds mental toughness. Everytime you say no to pizza Fridays at the office builds mental toughness. Then one day you find yourself overlooking a "hell hole" with an animal down there and you just nut up and send it.

That last sentence NEEDS to be a Rokslider bumber sticker or t-shirt!

 

[ohhiitznik]

While throwing on a pack and hiking hills or bleachers can and does work, it won't maximize your time efficiently.

Having some knowledge about training zones and effects will.

Most of us here know the basic difference between slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers. As I pointed out earlier, we have been led to believe we can train these two systems from the top down, not so. They must be trained from the bottom up.

The two different systems work, process and burn their fuel very differently. We do use slow twitch fibers while we are using fast twitch, but the reverse is not true. Also when we are at or above the anaerobic threshold, the slow twitch fibers are no longer getting the training effect that we need to see.

The threshold for this is much lower than we think, reference the nose breathing test.

Knowledge is power, knowing more will make you better by allowing you to train smarter and harder at the appropriate times with few or no setbacks.

Training zones is like sabermetrics in baseball. Most of the guys on here aren't going to worry about which zone they're in. While helpful for some of us, most of the guys won't delve that far into it.

 

[ohhiitznik]

While throwing on a pack and hiking hills or bleachers can and does work, it won't maximize your time efficiently.

Having some knowledge about training zones and effects will.

Most of us here know the basic difference between slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers. As I pointed out earlier, we have been led to believe we can train these two systems from the top down, not so. They must be trained from the bottom up.

The two different systems work, process and burn their fuel very differently. We do use slow twitch fibers while we are using fast twitch, but the reverse is not true. Also when we are at or above the anaerobic threshold, the slow twitch fibers are no longer getting the training effect that we need to see.

The threshold for this is much lower than we think, reference the nose breathing test.

Knowledge is power, knowing more will make you better by allowing you to train smarter and harder at the appropriate times with few or no setbacks.

And don't this as a sleight to your information. Because its not meant to be. Just saying its a little much for your average hunter.

 

[justinspicher]

All in all, I have really enjoyed this thread and it has make me rethink some of my training strategies. Getting a lighter pack is good, but being in better shape is gooder. I personally hate working out, but I hate being fat and unable to go in the mountains more. I am trying a new personally made program that has me run every other day and do HIIT/Crossfit type workouts the next. On the days I run I will focus on specific movements to enhance power, strength, and agility for mountain use. I think the best thing is focusing on my diet and recover techniques and avoid overtraining and peaking before a hunt instead of during it. Mostly, for me, I need to be enjoying what I am doing and not making it feel like a chore.

 

[jmez]

I find it interesting as well. I'm not deep enough into it to even know, or care what the zones are.

From a hunting perspective this thread is over thinking it. I don't think you need to be some sort of endurance junky to hunt the mountians. I hate endurance training and work. I rarely, if ever do any of it. If I do it is on a bike, in a pool or on a stairmaster. I've actually run more distance stuff the last 6 months in my Crossfit class than I have in the last 20 years combined. All of my running I've done prior has been 100 meter sprints. I don't suffer in the mountains. I have yet to wish I were in better shape or think I should have done more on the conditioning front.

You just don't need to be that "fit" to walk around in the mountains for a hunt. Bivy hunting and carrying a heavy pack every day all day is a little different. That would require more effort. I don't find it all that taxing to pack in a spike camp and then walk around for the next however many days with a 10lb day pack on. If not taking in a spike camp then it just gets easier.

I'm also of the opinion that there is no such thing as bad or wasted exercise. Anything is better than nothing. I'm also with Ohhiitznik in that if you truly want to train for the mountains, get a backpack and hike in a vertical fashion. All the science in the world, and there isn't really any hard science supporting any of these programs, won't make you game ready like being in the game. You see it in every sport and every discipline. If an athlete has been out for a period of time they never ever come back in game shape. The only way they get there is to play the game. This is seen every year in every sport. These are high level athletes with all of the money and resources in the world yet they suffer until the training includes the exact discipline they train for.

Hiking with a loaded pack may not be the most efficient use of your time but there is simply no substitute that can match it to get you ready.

 

[Climber]

Awesome thread and tons of good info. I think for the most part, people either "get it" when it comes to this stuff or they don't. The few people that are adding to this discussion probably have been training their entire life and really enjoy the sports physiology aspect of their workouts. I have rock climbed, run ultras, done cross fit and did bodybuilding 20+ years ago so I love learning and trying new programs.

Much of this training extrapolates over to hunting and being confident in the mountains. To me, the reason I put in the time and sacrifice are twofold: 1) I truly enjoy working out hard (along with the results) and 2) I want to be as confident as possible when I throw down a ton of money and most of my vacation on a once a year hunt in the mountains. It's not "over analyzing" if you enjoy it.

 

[onpoint]

I find it interesting as well. I'm not deep enough into it to even know, or care what the zones are.

From a hunting perspective this thread is over thinking it. I don't think you need to be some sort of endurance junky to hunt the mountians. I hate endurance training and work. I rarely, if ever do any of it. If I do it is on a bike, in a pool or on a stairmaster. I've actually run more distance stuff the last 6 months in my Crossfit class than I have in the last 20 years combined. All of my running I've done prior has been 100 meter sprints. I don't suffer in the mountains. I have yet to wish I were in better shape or think I should have done more on the conditioning front.

You just don't need to be that "fit" to walk around in the mountains for a hunt. Bivy hunting and carrying a heavy pack every day all day is a little different. That would require more effort. I don't find it all that taxing to pack in a spike camp and then walk around for the next however many days with a 10lb day pack on. If not taking in a spike camp then it just gets easier.

I'm also of the opinion that there is no such thing as bad or wasted exercise. Anything is better than nothing. I'm also with Ohhiitznik in that if you truly want to train for the mountains, get a backpack and hike in a vertical fashion. All the science in the world, and there isn't really any hard science supporting any of these programs, won't make you game ready like being in the game. You see it in every sport and every discipline. If an athlete has been out for a period of time they never ever come back in game shape. The only way they get there is to play the game. This is seen every year in every sport. These are high level athletes with all of the money and resources in the world yet they suffer until the training includes the exact discipline they train for.

Hiking with a loaded pack may not be the most efficient use of your time but there is simply no substitute that can match it to get you ready.

Jmez, I agree with a lot of what you've said here but I could not disagree more with this thread overthinking it. As Climber noted some people take the physical training aspect of hunting very seriously, it doesn't mean everyone has to but it also does not mean these guys are overthinking it. It's no different than how some people obsess over scope brands when the actual differences in clarity are barely perceivable to the naked eye, or when others mince ounces in their pack system. For me (and I think many of the others here) my conditioning is something I have 24/7/365 control over and most importantly (also as Climber noted) I truly enjoy the training itself and the science that goes with it.

I will never take an 800 yard shot, for one I don't think the average hunter will ever need or frankly should take that shot and two for my hunting preferences I'd rather get further back into the wild and closer to the animal I'm after. But I don't look at the guys that regularly practice at that distance or obsess over the ballistics or build these "long range systems" and think those guys are overthinking it. In fact if you're going to take shots like that, IMO you BETTER overthink it. The same logic applies to those that are willing or want to to push the limits of distance, elevation, etc. in the mountains. You're right you don't need to be an endurance junkie to "walk" around the mountains but when it comes time to haul an animal out in potentially unfavourable conditions over unknown terrain I'd rather be over prepared. You're right there is no substitute whatsoever for putting on a pack and hiking but not everyone has regular access to that so they need other ways to prepare for time in the mountains. If you're day hunting from your truck or quad then yes, this thread is likely a little too advanced for you but if you're planning a multi day trip that requires you to be more than 2 hours hiking from your vehicle then this thread is 100% not overthinking it.

 

[Bighorse]

Injury prevention, performance, and endurance...........Those in my opinion are the pillars of backcountry athletic conditioning. Your gonna need all of them at somepoint if a strenous hunt is to be feasible. I won't even say the word sucessful. Some hunts are just not fun! Your at every turn fatiqued. All your movements are at the risk of injury. Any stalk demands peak performance. When it's done and your packing that final load of meat into your truck, plane, or boat conditioning will determine if you have any desire to repeat the experience.

It's not Disneyland in the Wilderness. I'm not playing games. The adventerous aspect of the hunt at it's heart demands that we participate at great risk. Your conditioning programing should be to preserve your long term participation in hunting. Get ready boys! The mountains are calling and they don't ask for your gentle stroke but a hard driven agressive strike. Don't let em beat you down quite yet. You'll be old soon enough.

Like mentioned above there is no substitute for actual participation. I was raised in the Pacific Northwest. I've never even been to flat country. Mountains are all I know. I now live in SE Alaska. I've traveled to many of the various mountain ranges in Alaska. I think of it like a dancer. A well trained dancer has a body sense the allows them beautiful coordinated movements. We need that too. I did a 7mile mountain run with a former olympic marathon runner once. Mind you I'm a 200+ athlete. He left me far behind on the elevation gain over the first 3 miles. On the top with the rocky, off camber, snow laden, grassy, muddy terrain I overtook him and finished ahead. He struggled with the technical aspects of being in the mountains. Be prepared to move anywhere and whereever the mountains demand and you will enjoy your mountain hunts much more.

Best wishes for heavy packs and an injury free hunting season!

 

[jmez]

I think we pretty much agree onpoint. My "overthinking it" was directed at those that don't work out every day and make it a priority in their life.

 

[onpoint]

I think we pretty much agree onpoint. My "overthinking it" was directed at those that don't work out every day and make it a priority in their life.

Got it, and yes agreed!

 

[LJ Buck]

That is a good page. The Q&A page has some very interesting info in it. That seems like it would be a great place to train if you lived in Jackson.

You can perform these workouts at any typical gym.

 

[Poser]

You can perform these workouts at any typical gym.

I should clarify. I meant that it would be great to be one of their "lab rats" on location.

 

[Archelk]

This has been a great thread after reading all the way through. I have been crossfitting for over 8 years now and I am certified as a level 1 instructor and oly certified instructor as well. I am 40 yoa and for the past 8 years considered myself in the best shape of my life. About 4 weeks ago I ended up having a cervical micro disectomy on my C5-C7 and am still in the recovery phase. I am lucky that I have everything I could possibly need in my garage for Crossfit. I started having injury issues over the past 2 years and after this last surgery I am going to start toning down certain weight specific lifts for obvious reasons. I just ordered Training for the New Alpinism and I am looking forward to reading it and incorporating the material. I still plan on I implementing Crossfit too but as far as pushing heavy weight I think my days are done on certain movements. I love that I have the ability to come onto this forum read all of the different info and opinions and*incorporate what I think will benefit me into my training regimen. There will never be an end all training regimen that caters to 100% of everyone out there. Numerous outside factors to everyone individual goals and abilities are a testament to that. I am also lucky because my hunting partner is of the same mindset and ability level as me as far as fitness is concerned. I will never forget tagging along on a guided elk hunt in NM with my buddy and we saw a huge bull thrasung a tree about 4 ridgelines over. Our guide said there is no way to get over there. Me and my buddy told him, "To Hell it's not". We both looked at each other and started hoofing it. The guide ended up becoming the client and was not at all happy because the hump to that elk was grueling. I have been on climbs /hikes with people that are not at my same fitness and mental level and it was always miserable for me because of the constant hitching and moaning. I know Ihave mumbled to long but thanks to everyone on this thread it has been one of the best I have read.

 

[Ridge Ghost]

Archelk, which lifts gave you injury problems?