Reps and Strength/Power training

[Poser]

There was a question recently about the difference between doing, say, 10 sets of 5 vs 50 continuous reps

Strength is defined as the ability to exert a given amount of force.
Power is defined as strength plus speed.

1 to 4 reps increases pure strength but not muscle mass
4 to 9 reps increases both strength and muscle mass
9 to 15 reps increases strength, muscular endurance and muscle mass
15 to 30 reps increases muscular endurance with little to no increase in muscle mass or strength.
30 to 50 reps increases muscular endurance with no effect on muscle mass or strength.
50 to 100 reps increases muscular endurance and cardiorespiratory endurance with no increase in strength and possible loss of muscle mass and fat.

Lower reps assumes heavier weight than high reps. The heavier weight assumes the last of the reps occurs just before positive failure -what you can perform unassisted.

-source: Mark Twight, Extreme Alpinism


Assuming an athlete/hunter has an adequate or foundation amount muscle mass (without some mass, there is nothing to train), it would be safe to assume that most hunters will benefit most from a combination of, or cycles of, strength with no additional mass and muscular endurance without loss of mass. So, cycles of strength focused training and cycles of endurance focused training.

If I substitute hauling a pack for climbing specific strength, using Twight's formula, a 150 pound hunter, after several training cycles, should be strong enough to squat and/or deadlift 300 pounds (squat/deadlift for hunting as opposed to lat pull downs for climbing). The hunter than can haul 300 pounds in training, but only needs to haul 200 all day long (body weight + pack) should be able to do so because 200 doesn't overtax his physical capacity. If we wanted to expand this ratio for meat hauling, we end up with some pretty high strength numbers for mountain hunting ability. That would have a 150 lbs hunter ideally squatting/deadlifting more in the 400 lbs range to perform all day under the stress of 100+ additional pounds for meat hauling. That's not to say that a hunter lacking that strength ratio would not be able to haul a 100+ pound pack, only that it will require significantly more effort and presumably overtax the body.

Does anyone on here possess that kind of strength ratio and can talk about the benefits of obtaining that kind of ratio?

 

[jmez]

I honestly doubt there are many here with those types of ratios. When I was 20 years old and playing Div I football I would have been in that class. That was with state of the art training facilities, trainers and nutritionist under constant supervision and direction. Even with all of that there were many that wouldn't have those types of ratios. You are talking an elite level there, many are not capable of that without, say, a testosterone boost.

I weigh 205 and am fit. I would need to squat 545 lbs to be in that ball park. That isn't even feasible for me at 43.

I think the formula cited is more theory than real world and more importantly, the part about effort and overtaxing the body. Who on here could honestly say they go back country hunting and haul meat and do not fee taxed? I see the quote as saying being able to do this with basically no extra exertion or effort. That wouldn't have been possible when I was 20 and in the ball park of those ratios.

 

[Poser]

Yeah, I agree that is an extremely elite level. I suppose that benefits of achieving such a ratio would allow the solo hunter to perform consecutive meat hauls over sustained and difficult terrain. Being "overtaxed" by one load would imply that some kind of period of recovery (4,6, 8+ hours) would be required between trips. Or, such strength ratio could allow a hunter or hunters to potentially recover all of their meat and gear in one haul as opposed to 2 or 3.

At the same time, I do agree that this would be a certain "in theory" measurement especially since hauling meat over difficult terrain is going to require more of a individual strength and endurance from each leg rather than combined effort of a squat. Of course, Twight's use of the lat pulldown for climbing is equally just a measuring stick as climbing will often depend more on use of individual limb function rather than combined arm effort of pulling down. Nonetheless, it is some kind of measuring stick, an ideal strength ratio to strive for if you are seeking optimal performance through training for hunting.

 

[Darren Best]

Is he using the squat or the deadlift depending on a person mechanics towards what lift they would be better at?

In other words, a guy with short legs and long torso is a better squatter, long arms and legs and short torso guy deadlifts better.

 

[Poser]

Is he using the squat or the deadlift depending on a person mechanics towards what lift they would be better at?

In other words, a guy with short legs and long torso is a better squatter, long arms and legs and short torso guy deadlifts better.

He (Twight) is not using those examples. His book is geared towards Alpine Climbing so he uses Lat Pulldowns as a strength ration example. I took the liberty of substituting Squat and/or deadlift as an equivalent strength ratio for mountain hunting since our application would involve hauling "extreme" weight on our back rather than technical climbing. *That may or may not be a fair equivalence.

 

[ohhiitznik]

At 260 lbs I can deadlift about 700lbs and can squat 605. And I'm trying to drop my weight with more running and weighted pack climbing

 

[PJG]

Personally I don’t think that these numbers are too far off. I do think that we would have to define the length of a training cycle. If we base numbers strictly off of percentages, which most powerlifters do, we can use the following template. Let’s assume that the 150 pound lifter does 225 for sets of 8 on both the squat and the deadlift (I don't think that is unreasonable for a 150 pound lifter), let’s also assume that this is 65 percent of the lifters one rep max. If we use a 12 week program and increase the weight load by 5 percent every other week, i.e. week 1 65 percent, week 2 70 percent, week 3 65 percent, week 4 75 percent….at 12 weeks you would have the lifter at 100 percent of one rep max. The one rep max based off of percentages at 12 weeks would be 360 pounds for both the squat and the deadlift.

I did this program early in my powerlifting career and ended up with a competition squat of 385 pounds and a deadlift of 415 pounds at 160 pounds. At USAPL Raw nationals in 2010 the lifter that won the 165 pound weight class squatted 500 pounds and deadlifted 630 pounds, the deadlift was a US record. I think these numbers would be hard to achieve, also keep in mind that USAPL does drug test.

But, does this transfer over to the mountains? I am sure it helps some, but I really don’t think it will make or break you. I am sure some of the big guys on this site are trying to loose and some of the small guys are trying to gain some. Take a look at Justin Davis and Luke Moffat, neither of these guys are so called “big”, but look at the loads that they have carried. Also, keep in mind typically when you are dealing with low reps and high weight your flexibility can go to chit real quick, I am sure ohhiitznik can attest to this, he is putting up some big numbers.

With proper coaching especially in the Olympic lifts and squatting movements I believe this type of training can really help a person for mountain hunting.

 

[5MilesBack]

When I read through this, all I can think of is......"I pick things up, and put them down".

 

[jmez]

Also keep in mind Lance Armstrong passed a battery of drug tests for years, as do multiple NFL players, as do multiple power lifters, as do multiple body builders etc etc etc. The lifting and fitness sports, all of them, are wrought with steroid or other synthetic hormone use. Personally, I think they should be legal, do what you want with your body, but don't try to deny that it doesn't exist because of the charade called drug testing.

 

[PJG]

Also keep in mind Lance Armstrong passed a battery of drug tests for years, as do multiple NFL players, as do multiple power lifters, as do multiple body builders etc etc etc. The lifting and fitness sports, all of them, are wrought with steroid or other synthetic hormone use. Personally, I think they should be legal, do what you want with your body, but don't try to deny that it doesn't exist because of the charade called drug testing.

Fully agree with this ^^^^, good post.

 

[Poser]

Personally I don’t think that these numbers are too far off. I do think that we would have to define the length of a training cycle. If we base numbers strictly off of percentages, which most powerlifters do, we can use the following template. Let’s assume that the 150 pound lifter does 225 for sets of 8 on both the squat and the deadlift (I don't think that is unreasonable for a 150 pound lifter), let’s also assume that this is 65 percent of the lifters one rep max. If we use a 12 week program and increase the weight load by 5 percent every other week, i.e. week 1 65 percent, week 2 70 percent, week 3 65 percent, week 4 75 percent….at 12 weeks you would have the lifter at 100 percent of one rep max. The one rep max based off of percentages at 12 weeks would be 360 pounds for both the squat and the deadlift.

Twight's model if a 22 week cycle of Foundation building, Power training, cardio power endurance, cardio extensive endurance and muscular endurance, tapering, and peaking. This book was written well before his conception of Gym Jones, but I presume that he follows a same or similar model for most athletes to peak once a year or once every 6 months.

Last and not least I despise crossfit, in my mind this is the single biggest lifting joke in the business. But, with proper coaching especially in the Olympic lifts and squatting movements I believe this type of training can really help a person for mountain hunting. The biggest problem I have with crossfit is most of the people wouldn’t know how to truly break down the Olympic movements, the squat or the deadlift, and the rep ranges do not make any sense. They do so called WOD's just becuase someone has written them out, rather than basing their training on what they need to improve. Olympic lifting in my opinion is the best for all around mountain hunting, but a good coach has to be the foundation for this, not some moron that runs around with his shirt off in a crossfit gym…..

No doubt that Crossfit lacks standards in who can open an affiliate and there are certainly a number of poor affiliates out there or ones focused sheerly on Crossfit for the sake of Crossfit or Crossfit games. There are also affiliates with poor and/or unoriginal programming. I like the particular location I go to. The owner and head trainer are both certified in Olympic Lifting separate from Crossfit certification.

That being said, any sport specific athlete will benefit more from sport specific training and programming. I do Crossfit because I feel like it addresses much of what I need for the mountains, makes me do things that I am not so good at/work on my weaknesses and under the supervision of a trainer and in a motivating environment. The alternatives for training would be more difficult. Not many conventional gyms will allow olympic lifts either for lack of equipment (bumper plates or barbell jacks), for liability reasons or even have adequate open floor space for such lifting. Also, interacting and training with some other sport specific athletes (runners, triathletes, MMA fighters, several Krav Maga fighters at my box), allows some perspective. Ideally, a hunter would train with a group of hunters on a specific program, but that's not really an easy option for me. Plus, training specific to hunting is not exactly rocket science when compared with other sports. You need strong and powerful legs, a strong back, muscular and cardio endurance without overtraining. I feel like the programming I operate under addresses these aspects adequately on a training basis. Sure, it could be more customized, but I find globo gyms uninspiring. Basically, I could either go to Crossfit and do strength training, oly lifts and metabolic condition with other sport specific athletes, or I could go to a conventional gym and do customized-for- hunting workouts in an environment with people working out casually and/or amateur body builders. Faced with the 2 options, I personally think that Crossfit is better for me. Maybe not the "best" all out option, but, the better option when you consider scheduling, finances, and location. Could my time sometimes be better spent for training to hunt than taking the time to learn double unders or doing hand stand push ups? Sure. At the same time, a purist powerlifting approach would have you spending time working on things that do not directly benefit your hunting. Any non sport specific programming is going to have certain compromises and no doubt a straight Crossfit program or a purist powerlifting program are both subject to certain compromises (though bother better than a conventional bodybuilding approach) in relation to hunting. It is what it is. Exchanging ideas on the matter is why we all participate in physical fitness subforum on a hunting forum. -not arguing with you or even trying to change your mind on the subject. You obviously are knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[PJG]

^^^^another great post, I also agree on exchanging ideas.

 

[ohhiitznik]

People like to bash crossfit, who cares. People will do what they like. I'm a crossfit coach, gravitated towards crossfit from powerlifting because although I could lift an immense amount of weight I couldn't get up the hill like my billy goat buddy who couldn't deadlift 315. Crossfit has its problems, but it just started. And yes I'll be the first to tell you that some crossfit coaches do a poor job. But that doesn't mean all of them do. Most of them are just pushing people into the programming and trying to get their monthly rate. But you do find crossfit coaches with the insight and wherewithal to teach people correctly. There's always bad apples in a bunch. A lot of people don't understand that crossfits programming isn't supposed to be specified. The fact that it doesn't cater to specificity is why it works well for most people. Most people are used to a very regimented workout routine and they do this and that on certain days. This allows you to cater a workout program to your strengths and make you feel good about it, but doesn't address your weaknesses. Crossfit doesn't allow you to do that by changing things up. Now granted, my strengths are obviously the weightlifting portions, but now I can do 15 strict pullups, 27 if I kip. I can do hand stand pushups, could never do those before, I can dunk a basketball and my sprint time is faster. All of that is thanks to crossfit. I'll end it with crossfit isn't for everybody, but you shouldn't be bashing it because you don't like how its run or you don't partake. Just like I don't bash the guys who do body building splits for their mountain hunting workout routine.

 

[PJG]

Your right I shouldn't bash it, but I have tried it, and even gave it an honest chance. At the end I still feel its bad news. I finally decided to give it up when I ended up spending more time teaching technique to people than I did training, and when the gym owners started asking me to do this, even though I was not a trainer for these gyms. The worst thing I saw in the sport was the amount of young kids (grade school) that came through the door and where expected to partake in the WOD when oly and compound lifts where involved. I seen this at various gyms, I finally said enough is enough. I will leave it at that and will edit my above post, sorry for the negative rant, I apologize.

 

[Darren Best]

You guys really should read the book Training for the New Alpinism: A Manual for the Climber as Athlete.

Mark Twight has some excepts in it which he discuss his essays, TINSTAAFL (There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). Sadly the essays are no longer available to the general public.

High intensity interval training doesn't work the way clever marketers would have us believe.

 

[Mattphillips18]

Not trying to be rude, but genuinely curious, what would clever marketers have us believe?

 

[Darren Best]

That interval training will train base endurance.

It has been a long running fad and gimmick that you don't need to work base endurance anymore, it fact it's supposed to be harmful to us.

Here is some very interesting information from the book, you can draw your own conclusions.

In a well trained athlete there can be roughly 2000 calories of glycogen fuel stored in the muscle cells, which will give about 1-2 hours of zone 3 and 4 activity without refueling.

That same athlete will have about 100,000 calories of fat fuel in the muscle cells which will allow the athlete to maintain zone 1 and 2 activities for many hours.

With proper training, an athlete can operate in zone 1 and 2 cardio that would be zone 3 and 4 for an untrained person. But it takes many hours, months and in some cases years to achieve the highest levels of this training, hence Mark Twight's essay.

 

[Ironman8]

Elkhunter, are you referring to the "fad" that HIIT will be sufficient for long distance endurance? IE. zone 2-3? If so, I agree completely. VO2 max is what is trained in zone 4, not cardiovascular fitness/endurance. I personally like Crossfit when it's done right, but the claims that Crossfit Endurance makes is just not accurate.

As I said in Poser's other thread (I hate quoting myself, but it's easier and I think it applies here as well, so here goes):

I'm a big believer in training your body to do whatever it is you want it to do. If you want to be a world class runner or world class power lifter, then train your butt off doing just that. But if you're (like me) training for a good balance of the two, then you have to do both types of workouts. You won't be "world class" in either, but I believe you will get what you want.

I think Crossfit type of workouts along with endurance training mixed in with a little heavy pack workouts (preferably traveling on inclines/declines) is a great combo for mountain hunting. A perfect example of this is Cameron Hanes. He may be a much better natural athlete than either of us (I don't know you, so I'm just assuming) but he does all the above types of exercising and look at what he can do. He puts up a very respectable amount of weight, hikes/hunts well with a heavy pack, and just finished the Boston marathon...and qualified for next year's in the process. No question, the guy is a beast...but I think that may be one of the best examples I can illustrate.

 

[Poser]

Twight's programs has strength and HIIT type workouts at the core of the training cycle. He stresses the importance of training near and beyond your anabolic threshold in a 6 week cycle. The cardio endurance training is only 3 weeks of the 22 week cycle and primarily to condition the body to draw energy from fat sources, as you mentioned, though Your post seems to imply that he eschews HIIT type training for LSD training, which is not the case.

He also plans for periodic "depletion days" where you strive to learn how your body functions and performs in a depleted state so that you can learn how to function and push through in the mountains, though, the recovery period from these sessions is so long that it is not a regular occurrence.

All in all, there is a significant trend of moving way from cardio junkie/LSD type training in favor is shorter, more concentrated sessions. In retrospect, Twight's book was way ahead of the curve as far a this philosophy goes. These days, everyone from Triathletes to the military are jumping ship and using shorter interval, non traditional training for endurance and endurance events. Traditional training stated that the only way to obtain endurance was to constantly perform feats of endurance, though overtraining, injury, and loss of muscle are significant trade offs which can be averted through more concentrated and intense training.

At least, that is my understanding.... Gym Jones did start out as a Crossfit affiliate. Twight had a falling out with Glassman and there was even a lawsuit between the two when Twight started his own program. I don't know the details, but I'm sure the info it out there. I've always been a fan of Twight. I like the attitude and punk rock philosophy. He's in your face.

 

[Jdog]

Different strokes for different folks. Everybody's body is different. I played div I college basketball 20 years ago and was in good aerobic shape but ate whatever I wanted...diet was not stressed as it is now.

I currently do P90X and have been for 2 years--my body reacts well to it and its always challenging--it works for me.

But nothing prepares me for the lack of oxygen that the CO Rockies puts on me.

I got a buddy that I played college ball with that does a shot of testosterone 1 x a week--he looks amazing at 43 yrs ol but I wonder what its doing to his arteries and heart and who knows what ever else...

I use no supplements--proper diet and a solid workout plan works for me