Reloading newbs PSA on used brass

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

For all the other reloading newbs out there that are buying used brass or necking down brass to save a little money... To avoid lots of headaches and improve overall safety in your process, it's crucial that you get a head space comparator for your cartridge. I know, I know, this is a "duh, you idiot" from the veteran reloaders, so please be gentle. However, as a self-taught guy, I've been learning a lot with my 7-08 and want to take a minute to share and help others avoid the same.

The brass I'm using for the 7-08 includes a few hundred .308 cases from a couple different rifles that I've necked down with my Hornady FL die. I also recently purchased some once-fired Alpha 7-08 brass from another member. In the beginning, I assumed by running all the brass through the FL die at standard SAAMI spec. (shell holder touching the bottom of the die) the cases would all be sized appropriately and ready to load. However, I quickly ran into issues with random cases being hard or next to impossible to chamber. I measured OAL and the cases were all +/- a few thousandths and inside max length spec., so no issue there, but what I didn't fully comprehend was the differnce in the base to shoulder measurement, because hey, I FL sized everything and it should be okay.

To make an already long post short(er), when I got a head space comparator attached to my calipers, I quickly understood my faulty assumptions. The fired cases that had no issues chambering measured 1.623 from the base to the shoulder after firing. I verified this with necked down brass as well as a handful of new pieces of Alpha brass that were sized/fired. So, subtracting a couple thousandths for bump, the ideal base to shoulder measurement for this rifle's chamber should be around 1.621. At this point my mild OCD kicked in, and I spent the next 90 minutes or so measuring every piece of brass, and the results explained a lot.

It turns out that after SAAMI FL sizing all of my brass, the head space measurement varied from 1.617-1.629. About 50% of the brass ranged from 1.617-1.622, and the remaining 50% was 1.625-1.629. For an additional confirmation, I tried chambering random cases from each cohort, and what do you know, the former chambered easily and the latter took mild to extra effort or wouldn't chamber at all, even after FL sizing. As a result, with a little trial and error adjusting the FL die and measuring with the comparator, I found that screwing the die about 1/4 turn or so deeper gets me at or under 1.621 for the pieces in the 1.625-1.629 range.

The next step is to lube and re-size all of the 1.625-1.629 cases and measure to make sure they're inside spec. for this rifle. They're obviously not all going to be perfect, but as long as they're under 1.622, they should chamber without issues. After firing, in the future I'll measure again to confirm they're 1.623ish in length, and then adjust the FL die appropriately for .002 bump.

To summarize, if you're buying fired brass or necking down brass from other rifles, make sure you are measuring not only OAL, but most importantly, the base to shoulder head space. This will eliminate issues chambering your reloaded ammo and hopefully mitigate waste and rework at the bench.

 

[Jimbee]

For all the other reloading newbs out there that are buying used brass or necking down brass to save a little money... To avoid lots of headaches and improve overall safety in your process, it's crucial that you get a head space comparator for your cartridge. I know, I know, this is a "duh, you idiot" from the veteran reloaders, so please be gentle. However, as a self-taught guy, I've been learning a lot with my 7-08 and want to take a minute to share and help others avoid the same.

The brass I'm using for the 7-08 includes a few hundred .308 cases from a couple different rifles that I've necked down with my Hornady FL die. I also recently purchased some once-fired Alpha 7-08 brass from another member. In the beginning, I assumed by running all the brass through the FL die at standard SAAMI spec. (shell holder touching the bottom of the die) the cases would all be sized appropriately and ready to load. However, I quickly ran into issues with random cases being hard or next to impossible to chamber. I measured OAL and the cases were all +/- a few thousandths and inside max length spec., so no issue there, but what I didn't fully comprehend was the differnce in the base to shoulder measurement, because hey, I FL sized everything and it should be okay.

To make an already long post short(er), when I got a head space comparator attached to my calipers, I quickly understood my faulty assumptions. The fired cases that had no issues chambering measured 1.623 from the base to the shoulder after firing. I verified this with necked down brass as well as a handful of new pieces of Alpha brass that were sized/fired. So, subtracting a couple thousandths for bump, the ideal base to shoulder measurement for this rifle's chamber should be around 1.621. At this point my mild OCD kicked in, and I spent the next 90 minutes or so measuring every piece of brass, and the results explained a lot.

It turns out that after SAAMI FL sizing all of my brass, the head space measurement varied from 1.617-1.629. About 50% of the brass ranged from 1.617-1.622, and the remaining 50% was 1.625-1.629. For an additional confirmation, I tried chambering random cases from each cohort, and what do you know, the former chambered easily and the latter took mild to extra effort or wouldn't chamber at all, even after FL sizing. As a result, with a little trial and error adjusting the FL die and measuring with the comparator, I found that screwing the die about 1/4 turn or so deeper gets me at or under 1.621 for the pieces in the 1.625-1.629 range.

The next step is to lube and re-size all of the 1.625-1.629 cases and measure to make sure they're inside spec. for this rifle. They're obviously not all going to be perfect, but as long as they're under 1.622, they should chamber without issues. After firing, in the future I'll measure again to confirm they're 1.623ish in length, and then adjust the FL die appropriately for .002 bump.

To summarize, if you're buying fired brass or necking down brass from other rifles, make sure you are measuring not only OAL, but most importantly, the base to shoulder head space. This will eliminate issues chambering your reloaded ammo and hopefully mitigate waste and rework at the bench.

I have a couple shell holders that I had to sand down a few thousandths to get the shoulder bumped back far enough. Press would bottom out and I still couldn't get shoulders bumped back.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I won’t use someone else’s used brass if it were free. I haven’t seen the big savings that supposedly comes along with it.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I won’t use someone else’s used brass if it were free. I haven’t seen the big savings that supposedly comes along with it.

I'm questioning the savings myself after considering my time and rework. However, I won't make the same mistakes in the future.

The Alpha OCD brass is $125 plus tax and shipping for 100. I got 100 once-fired for $60 to my door, and I'd probably do it again. Not sure on the once-fired Federal Gold Medal I bought, although it was even cheaper. The other .308 cases I had laying around from an old rifle of my own.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I know we've discussed this in other threads, but I'll add it here that headspace is not the only dimension to worry about. Sometimes a standard FL die won't size the bottom portion of the case body down small enough for the next chamber due to springback and other tolerances and variables. That's where small base and collet dies come into play. But yeah, buying a new lot of quality brass for each chamber you're loading for is well worth the cost for less hassle and better performance.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Yes use comparators in conjunction but a way to truly headspace your own once fired brass to get your die set for your gun is to strip the bolt (firing pin and ejector) and chamber a piece of fired brass and notice the light resistance on bolt close. Start bumping back the shoulder, you'll get where the handle closes farther and farther without resistance until you get to the point where it falls closed by gravity. Add any additional margin you want from there but at that point you've truly bumped the shoulder back to fit your chamber.

 

[Lawnboi]

Used brass only when you know what you’re looking at.

It goes beyond headspace as well. Most issues can be found in the web area. Slightly different chambers can make ones brass unusable in the other, even if headspaced correct.

 

[Ens Entium]

I appreciate everyone sharing their experience and this is timely for me as I will be loading my first rounds in the near future.

I have ~300 cases of Prime (Norma) brass that I have shot through 3 different rifles that I plan to load for 1 rifle. Would it be sufficient to measure and sort prior to sizing with a headspace comparator then size accordingly and measure after sizing? Alternatively I could sort then toss anything shot out of another rifle.

 

[waspocrew]

Good topic! Having the correct tools can help troubleshoot issues for sure.

I appreciate everyone sharing their experience and this is timely for me as I will be loading my first rounds in the near future.

I have ~300 cases of Prime (Norma) brass that I have shot through 3 different rifles that I plan to load for 1 rifle. Would it be sufficient to measure and sort prior to sizing with a headspace comparator then size accordingly and measure after sizing? Alternatively I could sort then toss anything shot out of another rifle.

I tend to try to segregate brass and keep it to the specific rifle it was shot out of initially. However, since you plan to consolidate for just one rifle - I'd measure the brass to see if there's a difference. If it's not huge, size them, and see if they chamber fine.

I would recommend annealing, but not everyone wants to do that or feels it's necessary.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I appreciate everyone sharing their experience and this is timely for me as I will be loading my first rounds in the near future.

I have ~300 cases of Prime (Norma) brass that I have shot through 3 different rifles that I plan to load for 1 rifle. Would it be sufficient to measure and sort prior to sizing with a headspace comparator then size accordingly and measure after sizing? Alternatively I could sort then toss anything shot out of another rifle.

Do you have a fired case out of the 1 rifle you plan to load for? If so, measure it using a comparator so you can establish a baseline for this rifle's chamber. Once you have this measurement, I would measure the 300 and separate into different cohorts based on their measurements. This way you know what your starting point is and can begin brass prep in an organized manner. Afterwards, I would only size a handful from each cohort and then check chambering. Per @Harvey_NW advice, if you have bases that aren't compatible, you don't want to size all 300 just to find out you need a body die and another pass.

 

[Vern400]

Yes it is a tough situation. I have gotten all neanderthal, and I take the gun out and make sure all my crap fits. That's 100% guarantee.

I have found that the hardness of brass affects the spring back of the shoulder when it's pushed rearward. I can resize RP or federal brass just fine.... And then throw in some thicker wall LC cases and they don't gauge at the same dimension! And it's enough to cause a problem.

So if you're going to take the time to "bump the shoulder 0.002"
One batch of ammunition gets used in one rifle.
Head stamps should probably match
It would be ideal if the number of firings matched which I understand is difficult.
Annealing the case neck basically can set the clock back to zero from a work hardening standpoint.
If you have 20 identical pieces of brass, and you anneal 10 of them and then resize them all, there's a good chance that the average headspace will be different on the ones you annealed.

This isn't to say that everybody instantly has to get all worked up, and add a bunch of processes to their stuff. That's not the case. But if your plan is to make ammunition better and more reliable than factory ammunition there are a lot of quality checks to go into it. One of them is to check at least a statistical sample of your cartridges in THE rifle, shutting your bolt with YOUR hand.

I probably waste a lot of time. But the ammunition I use in matches and for hunting has pretty much been 100% function checked except for poking the primer.

 

[Ens Entium]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I was collecting brass at the time without the understanding of the implications of being fired from different rifles (I didn't know what I didn't know).

I will be loading for one of the three rifles so I will take brass from that rifle and use that to help sort and go from there.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I was collecting brass at the time without the understanding of the implications of being fired from different rifles (I didn't know what I didn't know).

Been there done that with a couple different rifles, and I hope you're able to avoid some of the same mistakes I've made. Good luck and hit us back with any questions.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I was collecting brass at the time without the understanding of the implications of being fired from different rifles (I didn't know what I didn't know).

I will be loading for one of the three rifles so I will take brass from that rifle and use that to help sort and go from there.

You can also run them all through a small base die and then they should fire in any chamber.

 

[buffybr]

I bought my first centerfire rifle, a .30-06, in 1967 and immediately started reloading for it...with range pickup brass. When I bought my .375 RUM in 2004 and my .300 Weatherby in 2009 I bought 200 new brass for each of them when I bought those rifles.

I've always been a brass scrounger, but .300 Wby brass is pretty scarce and .375 RUM is even scarcer. But I have made .300 Wby cases from 7 STW brass and .375 RUM cases from 7mm and .30 RUM cases.

Just about all of the cases for my other rifles and my pistols are range pickups. I wash and tumble clean all of my pickup and fired cases, and sort all of my rifle cases by headstamp. I've developed 3-shot moa loads for most of my rifles.

If I count all of the 12, 20, 28 ga and .410 Win AA shotshells that I've picked up or been given, the total number of shells that I've reloaded and fired cases is somewhere between 250K to 300K.

 

[SloppyJ]

This is a good lesson about "Once fired brass" and mixed headstamp brass when reloading. I've had hell with this too and have pretty much written off using anything that hasn't been fired in my chamber for my hunting rigs. You can make it work but it's a time suck and very tedious.

Sizing the base is another good point and something that PRC guys know about. I don't have a problem running range brass in my gas guns or pistols but anything that I'm looking for accuracy out of or consistency, only new brass for me.