Reloading 2.0 Guidance Requested

[TimberHunter]

Man talk about shitting up a thread trying to prove how smart you are

Good ol’ D measuring contest


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[TimberHunter]

I don’t know where you live, but if you’re anywhere near Coburg, Oregon, I’d be happy to show you how I do it. I’m sure there are many with much better skills than I have, but I like to think I do okay.





P

Appreciate the offer but that’s a full days drive and then some. Thank you though


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[BigStick]

Hurt Feeler Reports,are hilariously fascinating.




Professional Victims are rather entertaining................

 

[Quicksilver]

That’s actually a good finish from a flap wheel

 

[BigStick]

MUCH faster/easier,than setting up the 4-jaw on my lathe.

"Crowns" matter less than a little and I simply CHOP barrels,by the bushel.....................

 

[Marbles]

MUCH faster/easier,than setting up the 4-jaw on my lathe.

"Crowns" matter less than a little and I simply CHOP barrels,by the bushel.....................

 

[Marbles]

Hurt Feeler Reports,are hilariously fascinating.




Professional Victims are rather entertaining................

How do you like the Canon PowerShot G12? That is some serious dedication to use a stand alone camera for that kind of picture. Granted back in 2011 cell phone cameras sucked. Going to the length of using Lightroom to process the pictures is some dedication, even in 2011 though. By the way, 3.6 is pretty out of date, how old is that Mac you are running it on? How's the processing speed?

I mean, we are already running off topic by about 5 miles, so might as well delve into photography while we are at it. You might get something else right, and I really would like to see you succeed at something.

 

[sickles107]

@BigStick I value your experience, and riddles. Please don't get banned.

Back to original topic, regarding controlling headspace, what are your thoughts on using a dedicated mandrel die from the top, rather than pulling a button from the bottom. Could inconsistent ID neck lube lead to a button/ball on a size die pulling headspace?

 

[CatManDo]

Forester Bushing Sizing Die or something similar. OR if you really like the new Eric Cortina Mandrel Dies are top notch. There's lots of good Dies out there.

 

[JakeM51]

Don’t currently have any 6.5 dies. I sold every piece of reloading stuff I owned (likely $2-3k worth) because I was so frustrated with reloading lol

I don’t want to spend a lot of money on reloading gear/components but if let’s say Lapua brass is worth it, I have no problem spending the money on certain items to hopefully speed my reloading learn curve up. Trying to spend money where I should and not blow it on tools/components that will lead to minimal increases in accuracy.


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Just buy a TAC OPS

 

[Marbles]

@BigStick I value your experience, and riddles. Please don't get banned.

Back to original topic, regarding controlling headspace, what are your thoughts on using a dedicated mandrel die from the top, rather than pulling a button from the bottom. Could inconsistent ID neck lube lead to a button/ball on a size die pulling headspace?

Original topic? Seriously, you might as well be talking photography on this thread.

Stick should start his own threads, or you should start them for him.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm not a big user of 24hrCampfire but the google machine drags me over there occasionally and Big Stick is a common contributer to threads like he is on this one. Seems to be very knowledgeable but it takes a baseline of knowledge to understand what he's getting at.

Not trying to be malicious but i wonder if he has a disability that impacts his ability to communicate in a normal fashion, if english is a 2nd language, or he's just so wrapped up in his forum lingo that he cant go back.

Would certainly like to hear about what he knows but lots of unfamiliar folks are going to get their feelers hurt if they are unfamiliar with Stick's Schtick.

 

[TaperPin]

So long story short I’m coming to realize that I caused my own frustrations with reloading. Small shot count groups, changing .2-.3 grains per group, changing seating depth etc. on top of that, other than the 22-250, I was reloading for picky guns

No doubt about it, that can be frustrating. The handloading philosophy that with a lot of work you’ll find a good shooting load for that rifle, is both right and wrong. A lot of what’s written gives false hope, and even a load that seems to shoot well can be right on the edge of not being worth a darn and slight differences in temperature, or components makes it go to crap. It‘s frustrating seeing many others shooting small groups and everything you try is not working out.

It’s also human nature to want to show others extra small groups - guys in every form of shooting have always done this, and it’s not what any of those guns does on a consistent basis.

I can say without a doubt that if the accuracy you’d be happy with is keeping 10 shots in 1 moa, you don’t need a chronograph, or fancy brass, or anything other than a basic setup, but you do need an accurate rifle, good shooting technique and good range conditions.

If the first ten shots out of gun wont shoot 1 moa, the next 100 (probably) wont either. Factory loads can be very good, on an average rifle you may not be able to get more accuracy out of reloads.

Focus on the powder, the bullet and the barrel - if you don’t reload that changes to brand of cartridge and barrel. Save up and get a good barrel, way before a chronograph, or wasting $200 in components to determine a rifle won’t shoot.

I‘d say get an accurate barrel before reloading equipment.

In factory guns I used to have an old beat up 243 that shot everything well, factory or reloads - for $125 it was very close to a 1 moa gun. The next ten factory rifles didn’t shoot that good. The first custom barrel that was put on my hunting rifle was a real eye opener - it shot everything that I loaded very very well. I didn’t experiment with seating depth, or powder charge other than a max load that wouldn’t produce pressures that would ruin a case after ten reloads, and done. (edit: I skipped working on powder charge and seating depth because it shot so good, not because those aren’t valuable techniques)

Think about barrels as a consumable, just like components. Every shot is the cost of components and cost of barrel wear. The added cost of an extra accurate gun barrel is somewhere between $1/shot for a barrel burner to $.20/shot for a cartridge like the 6.5 creed. Would you spend an extra $2 for a sub moa 10 shot Creedmoor group? Most people would.

 

[CatManDo]

No doubt about it, that can be frustrating. The handloading philosophy that with a lot of work you’ll find a good shooting load for that rifle, is both right and wrong. A lot of what’s written gives false hope, and even a load that seems to shoot well can be right on the edge of not being worth a darn and slight differences in temperature, or components makes it go to crap. It‘s frustrating seeing many others shooting small groups and everything you try is not working out.

It’s also human nature to want to show others extra small groups - guys in every form of shooting have always done this, and it’s not what any of those guns does on a consistent basis.

I can say without a doubt that if the accuracy you’d be happy with is keeping 10 shots in 1 moa, you don’t need a chronograph, or fancy brass, or anything other than a basic setup, but you do need an accurate rifle, good shooting technique and good range conditions.

If the first ten shots out of gun wont shoot 1 moa, the next 100 wont either. Factory loads can be very good, on an average rifle you may not be able to get more accuracy out of reloads.

Focus on the powder, the bullet and the barrel - if you don’t reload that changes to brand of cartridge and barrel. Save up and get a good barrel, way before a chronograph, or wasting $200 in components to determine a rifle won’t shoot.

I‘d say get an accurate barrel before reloading equipment.

In factory guns I used to have an old beat up 243 that shot everything well, factory or reloads - for $125 it was very close to a 1 moa gun. The next ten factory rifles didn’t shoot that good. The first custom barrel that was put on my hunting rifle was a real eye opener - it shot everything that I loaded very very well. I didn’t experiment with seating depth, or powder charge other than a max load that wouldn’t produce pressures that would ruin a case after ten reloads, and done. Think about barrels as a consumable, just like components. Every shot is the cost of components and cost of barrel wear. The added cost of an extra accurate gun barrel is somewhere between $1/shot for a barrel burner to $.20/shot for a cartridge like the 6.5 creed. Would you spend an extra $2 for a sub moa 10 shot Creedmoor group? Most people would.

Changing incremental powder charges is good technique; changing seating depth is also good technique. Thing is you want to find the right powder charge and then dick with the seating depth. That said, OP is a hunter at heart not a paper puncher. Shooting Minute of Deer (4~5 MOA) should be doable with minimal trial and error. There are good indicators as to which powder might be right for your situation.
Right now I'm playing around with IMR 4064 and getting fairly good results. I can hit whatever I point at @100yds. Not going to mess with seating depth cause only about half the length of the cartridge neck is filled with a bullet. ~ 2.665" OAL if I do everything right.
With the 6ARC I'm still experimenting with different powders. It's a fun thing to do.

 

[TaperPin]

My bs detector went off with the fallacy of moly coated bullets always being better and accurate crowns not being important - I stopped listening after that. Both of those statements have been well tested in the accuracy world and proven without a shadow of a doubt to not be true. I only shot moly bullets in a few rifles, but I defer to the hundreds of dedicated accuracy shooters that tried them hoping to get the even the smallest of small accuracy advantage, and stopped using them because the benefits just aren’t there other than consistent bullet seating pressure. Moly neck lube prior to bullet seating has been adopted by many, bullets, not so much.

Importance of an even, burr free crown has been documented by hundreds of individuals. In shooting tests it’s quite easy to move a group around with nothing other than a slightly uneven cut. Think about the high pressures coming out the muzzle and just as the bullet has barely left, the high pressure gas follows the path of least resistance and sprays out the first gap, putting unequal pressure on the base of the bullet.

Cutting a barrel by hand can work ok if a slight cone is added with a lap or reamer made for such things. I tested the cone shape tip on a diamond knife sharpener and it worked just as well as a crown reamer.

I also have a lathe and cannot imagine anyone choosing instead to crown a barrel with a flap wheel. Thats like owning a tire changing machine and instead using tire irons to change tires.

 

[TaperPin]

Changing incremental powder charges is good technique; changing seating depth is also good technique. Thing is you want to find the right powder charge and then dick with the seating depth. That said, OP is a hunter at heart not a paper puncher. Shooting Minute of Deer (4~5 MOA) should be doable with minimal trial and error. There are good indicators as to which powder might be right for your situation.
Right now I'm playing around with IMR 4064 and getting fairly good results. I can hit whatever I point at @100yds. Not going to mess with seating depth cause only about half the length of the cartridge neck is filled with a bullet. ~ 2.665" OAL if I do everything right.
With the 6ARC I'm still experimenting with different powders. It's a fun thing to do.

You’re correct about those being good techniques. I edited that post to say so and I should have added the context. The only reason I stopped and didnt do those things was it shot so well. I was going to be happy with consistent groups under a certain size and it shot everything into half that, so there was no need to experiment further since it was only used as a hunting rifle.

 

[Pharmseller]

Appreciate the offer but that’s a full days drive and then some. Thank you though


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No worries.

Can you find someone local who can walk you through their process? No substitute for hands-on learning.

Maybe PM Big Stick. True story, years ago off 24hourcampfire he was very helpful in teaching me how to set up my FL sizing dies, as well as finding distance to lands. His mantra is “Kiss, find pressure, and rock on,” meaning find the oal that barely contacts the lands, determine a powder charge that shows pressure signs, then back off, and start loading.

It’s a decent theory which I no longer follow, but it’s a good first step.

BTW he’s on ignore on 24hourcampfire due to some weirdness but I’ll always owe him for his generosity in helping a new handloader.

He used to be Boxer on the ‘fire.




P

 

[Bomberodevil]

Enlighten me. And I don't know you but I'll accept the notion we are "pals".
I was responding to OP's remarks, not to a bloviating bully

Some of us are very familiar to BigStick from another board. While he can be very irritating at times, he is an extremely knowledgeable reloader and gunsmith. His technical advice is usually very good.

 

[CatManDo]

Well, I'll just have to take your word for that. Flap Sander to "finish a barrel" is something PRS and other competition shooters just wouldn't do, EVER!!

 

[35WhelenAI]

I agree close to the lands and back off on the charge in some cases. However, many factory guns have enough "free bore" that given magazine length limitations, that's not an option.

If it's not chasing game animals and can be single fed there is some value in that. However, I can almost say with certainty the factory ammo that shoots so well is nowhere close to the lands in the sense it's being talked about here. It has to be loaded to be at or under SAAMI OAL guidelines to function in any rifle in that chambering. That idea doesn't work for me in this case. If factory ammo shoots well, that could be a guide for overall length with the same projectile, however.