Reliable 2011s - best value?

[peterk123]

I have a STI Marauder in 9mm. It has never failed me. It has thousands of rounds through it. Wonderful gun. I love 2011 handguns. They fit so nicely in your hand.

 

[Formidilosus]

Too true. It's jaw-dropping how bad that launch and marketing has been. IMO, it's hands-down the best commander-sized CCW gun out there, all factors considered. The Staccato C is just a bit thicker and taller, no problems for CCW, but not quite as optimal of a footprint. The Staccato CS is a bit shorter height-wise, with a shorter slide, but is thicker than the DWXc and feels just a bit too chonky in the grip to me personally. Any smaller and you get into shootability or capacity compromises.

The DWX is thinner in the grip than a Staccato C/CS?

 

[Formidilosus]

Of course part of that is the straight up 2011 obsession going on right now

Why do you think that is?

 

[streamerfish]

The DWX is thinner in the grip than a Staccato C/CS?

Yeah, more of a cz style grip.

 

[JohnJohnson]

A few examples please?

SIG P226/229
P365
CZ 75 SA
CZ TS2
CZ SP-01
Tanfoglio Limited Master (my competition pistol)

A couple off the top of my head. The CZ and Tanfoglio's are basically bullet proof options. The Tikka's of the single action world IMHO. Not as familiar with the sigs. I'm sure there are others, but those came to mind first.

I have a Sig P226 X Legion SAO and it's a nice pistol. Bore axis is overblown but it's not nothing so the 226X has a bit more snap than a Shadow 2. But the X series of the 226 lets you get a higher grip on it and has a different return from recoil, not like the rocking motion of the previous generation of 226 (I have that too). It comes in around the pricepoint of a Springfield Prodigy ($1350-1400 or so) so in that middle pricepoint tier.

Edit: My one gripe with the 226 X so far is the grip screws are made out of recycled tin cans or something they strip easily. I was switching over to LOK Gridloks on it and managed to horribly strip a screw and partially strip another.

 

[Terrapin]

Has anyone played with the Vudoo 2011? The marketing pictures look nice… no idea on the price.

I absolutely love my CZ Shadows and Tangfolios… but the cool kids all have 2011s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Yeah, more of a cz style grip.

Ever measured them both?

 

[JohnJohnson]

Has anyone played with the Vudoo 2011? The marketing pictures look nice… no idea on the price.

I absolutely love my CZ Shadows and Tangfolios… but the cool kids all have 2011s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Honestly Vudoo has been circling the drain as a company for awhile. I'd be real nervous to buy anything from them now (I own a V22 from when they first started).

 

[streamerfish]

Why do you think that is?

Multiple reasons....

I would probably say grip (size, angle etc), weight and balance(model dependent a bit), and trigger are probably the big 3.

Grip angle is naturally comfortable for most people. Grip size is big enough to get really good off hand connection to the gun.

Weight brings the recoil down considerably making it easier to shoot.

Even a meh series 70 trigger feels better than your average factory striker fire pistol.

Staccato in particular has done a remarkable job of marketing to the mainstream when 2011's were at one point much more a niche item. While actually building a robust off the shelf 2011.

Trust me, I have nothing but love for 2011's, I've ran a couple race guns that I absolutely lust over.

If I was gonna pack a hammer gun, it would probably be a staccato.

Not a use profile for me. But I completely understand why staccato is so popular.

Now line me up with a limcat or brazos, or maybe even a mpa for a new limited optics comp gun and I'm drooling...but the budget gets spread thin lol

 

[streamerfish]

Has anyone played with the Vudoo 2011? The marketing pictures look nice… no idea on the price.

I absolutely love my CZ Shadows and Tangfolios… but the cool kids all have 2011s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The vudoo is a really nice gun. But the company has been a bit iffy of late.

 

[Formidilosus]

Multiple reasons....

I would probably say grip (size, angle etc), weight and balance(model dependent a bit), and trigger are probably the big 3.

Grip angle is naturally comfortable for most people. Grip size is big enough to get really good off hand connection to the gun.

Weight brings the recoil down considerably making it easier to shoot.

Even a meh series 70 trigger feels better than your average factory striker fire pistol.

Staccato in particular has done a remarkable job of marketing to the mainstream when 2011's were at one point much more a niche item. While actually building a robust off the shelf 2011.

Trust me, I have nothing but love for 2011's, I've ran a couple race guns that I absolutely lust over.

If I was gonna pack a hammer gun, it would probably be a staccato.

Not a use profile for me. But I completely understand why staccato is so popular.

Now line me up with a limcat or brazos, or maybe even a mpa for a new limited optics comp gun and I'm drooling...but the budget gets spread thin lol

Sounds like there’s a reason for the desire for them.

 

[streamerfish]

Ever measured them both?

No, haven't measured them, by feel the full sized dwx felt smaller circumference wise, off memory its basically a cz 75 grip profile, more rounded, a bit more shape. You can correct me if im wrong but I think the actual angle is pretty close to the same.

 

[streamerfish]

Sounds like there’s a reason for the desire for them.

Never questioned the reasons for the desire. Or the reasons for the popularity.

I do question the function of alot of these "cheaper" guns that have been hitting the market, that really arent that cheap by pistol standards. And suggested that having a basic knowledge of operation and ability to adjust/tune them would probably be wise (its wise regardless).

Based on what I have seen in limited data sets, and based on what I have read about your testing and general thought process (great information, thanks for doing it all and making it public) I bet staccatos probably would pass the muster for you, potentially the kimber as well. I dont think long term some of these others at a lower price point will. At least not without more modifications and more "love". I do think some other non 2011s at lower price points would though. That are single action hammer guns.

 

[JF_Idaho]

I all but guarantee the Kimber doesn't survive Form torture. Glad to see they're stepping it up though. I have an old stainless target 9mm and a pro carry 2 45. Haven't had any problems with them over the years. But have only probably put 1k rounds on either. Haven't shot them in a while and will probably sell them soon. Certainly wouldn't bet my life on them.

 

[streamerfish]

I all but guarantee the Kimber doesn't survive Form torture. Glad to see they're stepping it up though. I have an old stainless target 9mm and a pro carry 2 45. Haven't had any problems with them over the years. But have only probably put 1k rounds on either. Haven't shot them in a while and will probably sell them soon. Certainly wouldn't bet my life on them.

I did say potentially on the Kimber lol......I have a buddy running one is USPA, he is closing in on 30K rounds on it, maybe cleans it every 10K rounds or so. Besides basic spring replacement maintenance its been a machine.

But yeah, from what I have read, Forms torture tests are the stuff of legend. I doubt I would survive lol.

And yet, I'm going to get either a Trijicon Huron or SWFA scope, and probably a tikka based on his and others data sets around here. Soo yeah.

 

[RockAndSage]

Ever measured them both?

Well, I just did, and had a stark lesson in the differences between perception and reality.

The DWX Compact both looks and feels smaller and thinner in the grip than the Staccato C. But every measurement I took of the grips just didn't make sense, because they are virtually identical in almost every measurable way, being less than a hundredth of an inch apart across almost every measurement.

The DWX Compact and the Staccato C are within about .006" of each other in width, at 1.214" and 1.221" respectively. Front to back the DWXc is just a hair longer in grip for the couple of inches of grip height above the toe, and they were within about 1/8th of an inch in circumference right there. At the shortest point between the triggerguard undercut and closest part of the back of the grip, just below the beavertail radius, the DWXc was a hair shorter, but only about 1/4" smaller in circumference. On paper, they're nearly identical and just not enough to be able to claim that it matters.

I spent about 20 minutes trying to figure out why the DWXc both looks and feels smaller/thinner, and about the only thing that makes sense is the radius of the front strap is a bit more curved/circular, and across the top of the front of the grip where the mag release is, the DWXc is notably more refined and thinner. But that's just about it.

The only place I see any notable difference for CCW, is the toe of the Staccato C drops down almost an inch lower than the toe of the DWXc, but the heel height is, again, almost identical, with the DWXc not coming to quite as much of a point.

Width of the DWX Compact:



Width of the Staccato C:





Best picture I could get of the area across/underneath the two mag release areas - the DWX has a lot less material - DWXc on right, Staccato C on left:





Toes of the two pistols, DWX Compact on top - the tops of the slides are at identical heights:





So, the differences are so small that they're nearly not worth mentioning, but the two guns do feel notably different. With the DWX Compact, it's like they removed just a bit more material from just a few places, but size-wise they're almost identical.

 

[RockAndSage]

No, haven't measured them, by feel the full sized dwx felt smaller circumference wise, off memory its basically a cz 75 grip profile, more rounded, a bit more shape. You can correct me if im wrong but I think the actual angle is pretty close to the same.

I handled a full-sized DWX about 5 or 6 months ago, and it felt like an entirely different gun from the DWX Compact, in the grip. They actually do use different mags, but the Compact felt significantly thinner.

Then again, given what I just experienced in measuring the Staccato C vs the DWXc, I might have to dial back my thoughts on feels vs reality a bit more.

 

[Formidilosus]

No, haven't measured them, by feel the full sized dwx felt smaller circumference wise, off memory its basically a cz 75 grip profile, more rounded, a bit more shape. You can correct me if im wrong but I think the actual angle is pretty close to the same.

The width is what was red

Well, I just did, and had a stark lesson in the differences between perception and reality.

The DWX Compact both looks and feels smaller and thinner in the grip than the Staccato C. But every measurement I took of the grips just didn't make sense, because they are virtually identical in almost every measurable way, being less than a hundredth of an inch apart across almost every measurement.

The DWX Compact and the Staccato C are within about .006" of each other in width, at 1.214" and 1.221" respectively. Front to back the DWXc is just a hair longer in grip for the couple of inches of grip height above the toe, and they were within about 1/8th of an inch in circumference right there. At the shortest point between the triggerguard undercut and closest part of the back of the grip, just below the beavertail radius, the DWXc was a hair shorter, but only about 1/4" smaller in circumference. On paper, they're nearly identical and just not enough to be able to claim that it matters.

I spent about 20 minutes trying to figure out why the DWXc both looks and feels smaller/thinner, and about the only thing that makes sense is the radius of the front strap is a bit more curved/circular, and across the top of the front of the grip where the mag release is, the DWXc is notably more refined and thinner. But that's just about it.

The only place I see any notable difference for CCW, is the toe of the Staccato C drops down almost an inch lower than the toe of the DWXc, but the heel height is, again, almost identical, with the DWXc not coming to quite as much of a point.

Width of the DWX Compact:View attachment 990418



Width of the Staccato C:

View attachment 990419



Best picture I could get of the area across/underneath the two mag release areas - the DWX has a lot less material - DWXc on right, Staccato C on left:

View attachment 990420



Toes of the two pistols, DWX Compact on top - the tops of the slides are at identical heights:

View attachment 990421



So, the differences are so small that they're nearly not worth mentioning, but the two guns do feel notably different. With the DWX Compact, it's like they removed just a bit more material from just a few places, but size-wise they're almost identical.

Ha. I was hoping you would check.

It’s the grip panels that create the narrower front strap where your fingers wrap that cause the feel. When the Brouwer M1811 grip was being developed (a true 1911 grip), it was found almost immediately that the narrower and rounded front strap caused by the grip panels was a very big deal in feel.

 

[RockAndSage]

It’s the grip panels that create the narrower front strap where your fingers wrap that cause the feel. When the Brouwer M1811 grip was being developed (a true 1911 grip), it was found almost immediately that the narrower and rounded front strap caused by the grip panels was a very big deal in feel.

That is super interesting, and makes sense. The info that came out of that R&D must have been cool as hell to have insight on. Hope Brouwer is able to make use of all that in grip designs for other handgun modules.

 

[streamerfish]

The width is what was red


Ha. I was hoping you would check.

It’s the grip panels that create the narrower front strap where your fingers wrap that cause the feel. When the Brouwer M1811 grip was being developed (a true 1911 grip), it was found almost immediately that the narrower and rounded front strap caused by the grip panels was a very big deal in feel.

Yeah, i thought they were pretty close, slightly more rounded off makes it feel very different. makes sense. good guns.