Realistic MOA Expectations vs Marketing

[Formidilosus]

There is almost a zero percent chance a factory tikka will out shoot a custom gun of the same chambering. And I’m not saying factory tikkas don’t shoot well. I recommend them to anyone that wants a factory gun. But there isn’t a chance in hell it’s going to outshoot a well built custom rifle with premium components. The factory tikka stock alone would eliminate that chance.

That’s not true in a lot of cases that I’ve seen. At least in 223, 6.5 cm, and 308 wins of which I have seen a lot used, on average there is less than .1 to.2 MOA difference between factory tikka and equal rifles with Bartlien, Brux, Kreiger, etc barrels and custom actions, and very often they same/same especially the CTR and Tac models.

 

[huntnful]

I've never owned a custom gun like that, so I'm not going to argue, except to say that you'd pick the best Tikka and then start upgrading around the barreled action. What percentage of rifle hunters would you say are good enough to realize meaningful performance improvements from that kind of high end outfit over a decently kitted RSS? I'm sure not. I see it a little bit like $1100 Sage top of the line fly rods - they sure are nice, no question, but unless you're a truly expert competition level caster they aren't going to noticeably move the performance needle, and even then it won't be by much.

Now that statement I fully agree with! You can absolutely put a tikka action into a better stock, and then put an aftermarket barrel on it (even though the factory barrels shoot pretty damn good) and I would put it right next to any custom honestly. Rifle weight is also a big factor. Add a little weight to it somewhere, and you're in serious business as far as shooting groups goes!

30rd group today with my first hand loads. Factory CTR 20” 6.5 creed. Glad I listened to @PNWGATOR and bought a tikka. I would say I am an average shooter at best so I’m sure a capable shooter can reduce that spread by a good bit. Either way I am very impressed with it!

View attachment 707181

Now that is excellent! A group like that will kill animals out to a long ways! Very consistent and dependable load right there!

 

[huntnful]

That’s not true in a lot of cases that I’ve seen. At least in 223, 6.5 cm, and 308 wins of which I have seen a lot used, on average there is less than .1 to.2 MOA difference between factory tikka and equal rifles with Bartlien, Brux, Kreiger, etc barrels and custom actions, and very often they same/same especially the CTR and Tac models.

Can't argue with that at all. When I first responded, I was directly thinking of their T3 line for some reason, because that's all I've personally shot, and what most people buy for hunting. And while I've shot enough of them to know they shoot good, I've never seen one just stack rounds. But they were also all bigger cartridges. Which of course isn't ideal for accuracy, especially in that light platform. I'm certain you probably couldn't shoot the differences between their heavier models with smaller cartridges and most customs.

I had a "junk" seekins 6.5PRC. Crooked chamber, crooked stock, copper foul like a MF. It would shoot .3" 5 shot groups all the time with hand loads.... because it weighed 20lbs. That's basically impossible to best with any custom. Weight is certainly a factor in comparison.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Tikka CTRs shoot great from my limited experience. It'll be a year or two before I buy another rifle exclusively for hunting. I really hope in the meantime KRG comes out with the updated version of their Midas trigger. I just really like two stage triggers and the lack of options for Tikka has caused me to hesitate. Though I think @Formidilosus mentioned once that Sako TRG triggers work in Tikkas. Not sure where you'd buy a Sako TRG trigger though.

 

[huntnful]

That’s not true in a lot of cases that I’ve seen. At least in 223, 6.5 cm, and 308 wins of which I have seen a lot used, on average there is less than .1 to.2 MOA difference between factory tikka and equal rifles with Bartlien, Brux, Kreiger, etc barrels and custom actions, and very often they same/same especially the CTR and Tac models.

Wow I was WAY undereducated on how many offerings they have. In all honesty, pretty bold/ignorant statement by me. I've literally only handled T3X lite and T3X superlite in 6.5 PRC and larger chamberings. So my initial thought was "no ******* way that thing is outshooting a well built custom".

But now after educating myself on their website, there are TONS of options. And any of those 8.5-9lb base weight rifles with better stocks than what I'd used, I'm certain you could hardly shoot the difference with a similar weight custom rifle.

 

[RockAndSage]

No- average extreme spread is between 3 to 3.2 times what average distance to center (mean radius) is. Because it is “average”. You can have a rifle that averages .5 MOA MR, but can’t reliably hit a 1.5 MOA target with 5 rounds (or 3, or 10, whatever).

This is outside my experience levels, but I really want to understand what you're saying here...

Radius is half diameter, so a .5 MOA mean radius should equate to a 1 MOA mean group diameter. But... you're saying average extreme spread is 3 to 3.2x average mean radius...not 2x. I don't understand this, can you please explain?

 

[tdluke90]

I’ll give my experiences with a handful of the rifles I’ve bought the last few years.
3 shot groups



Tikka t3 supelite 30-06 factory ammo never got to to shoot below 1.25-1.5 groups with factory

Savage model 12 varmint shoots .75” very consistently with factory ammo

Tikka Ctr with hand loads is definitely around a .75 moa

Tikka t3x super lite 6.5 creed I’m disappointed if the first 3 aren’t below 1” and they usually are shooting factory 140eldm

Savage 110 ultra lite with proof barrel. Out the box shoot 1/2 moa with factory ammo, reloading and shooting few hundred rounds through it I can not get it to consistently to shoot sub moa

Tikka t1x 22 the gun that I’m happiest with as it shoots cci standard velocity under 1 moa more often than not

Alamo precision altitude 6.5 prc proof sendero with hand loads I expect it to shoot below .8 moa and it’s usually below that and with factory Hornady ammo it is usually around 1 moa

Mpa factory rife and chasis in 6 creed is pretty much a 1/2 moa gun. Sometimes I get those pretty 1/4 inch groups. It shoots the factory and hand loads very good and seems the most consistent.

I don’t see a correlation with the money spent and the accuracy yet.

 

[seand]

This is outside my experience levels, but I really want to understand what you're saying here...

Radius is half diameter, so a .5 MOA mean radius should equate to a 1 MOA mean group diameter. But... you're saying average extreme spread is 3 to 3.2x average mean radius...not 2x. I don't understand this, can you please explain?

Mean = average of all shots

ES = extreme spread, distance between the two shots farthest from center (not an average of all shots)

 

[Jason Snyder]

This is outside my experience levels, but I really want to understand what you're saying here...

Radius is half diameter, so a .5 MOA mean radius should equate to a 1 MOA mean group diameter. But... you're saying average extreme spread is 3 to 3.2x average mean radius...not 2x. I don't understand this, can you please explain?

Here is a good photo example. Just because you have a small mean radius doesn’t account for a couple of shots that will drastically change your extreme spread/max group size.

 

[ridgehopper]

Not to derail your questions but "ES" is a velocity spread, not your group size.
Es or extreme spread is the slowest shot according to velocity and the fastest shot in your string of fire.
Has nothing to do with the size of your groups

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Es of a group as far as group size goes would refer to the extreme spread of the group size. Es is not only used for velocity numbers.

 

[ridgehopper]

30rd group today with my first hand loads. Factory CTR 20” 6.5 creed. Glad I listened to @PNWGATOR and bought a tikka. I would say I am an average shooter at best so I’m sure a capable shooter can reduce that spread by a good bit. Either way I am very impressed with it!

View attachment 707181

First of all that’s like cheating with a ctr. Secondly your making me jealous of your left handed model.

 

[robtattoo]

They're all "¼ moa (ADLIIDMP)" guns, if you're happy picking 3 shots out of a 10 shot group



I took that just to show how a "¼moa", "½moa" & an actual, real representative group looks. There are no 'fliers', there is just the accuracy cone.

 

[Macintosh]

This is outside my experience levels, but I really want to understand what you're saying here...

Radius is half diameter, so a .5 MOA mean radius should equate to a 1 MOA mean group diameter. But... you're saying average extreme spread is 3 to 3.2x average mean radius...not 2x. I don't understand this, can you please explain?

Radius is from the center of a circle to the outside edge. So the mean radius is half of the “mean group size”. Which means every shot outside that mean circle is increasing the extreme spread beyond that 2x the mean radius, hence the 3-ishx MR to reach extreme spread.
If mean radius=.5”, then “mean group”= 1”, but there are still shots that are outside that mean group (something has to be above average for there to be an average), so the extreme spread will be something like a 1.5-1.7” group, ie 3x the MR or a little more.

 

[n8outdoors]

Yes. Two groups might have an identical extreme spread but aren’t at the same POI relative to POA.

Think of using one of the 1.5” orange sticky target dots that have lines dividing them into quadrants. You shoot four groups of five. Each of the targets has a group of five rounds at .5” extreme spread, but in each of the four quadrants. Your overall extreme spread is not .5”. Its the overall spread if you were to overlay all of the groups on the same target.

If you have four different targets, using the above scenario you’d look at it and say my gun shoots .5” every time, when in reality the aggregate is more like 1.2-1.5”.

I get that. I aggregate all the shots as if they are on one target, I just like going one corner at a time because it's easier to see.

 

[Vern400]

This is pretty much statistics, as it relates to CONFIDENCE. That means:
Are you happy if half your groups are sub-moa?
Do you require 90%of groups be sub moa?

If you use a standard machine test dispersion coefficient of about 3 (Weibull analysis stuff). THEN
You'd need about twice the precision in a single 5 shot group to have 80% confidence, as compared to expecting 50/50.

Funny how that works out. You're shooting 5 and 20 shot groups. And very roughly speaking your group's doubled.

If a person really has a rifle that will shoot some MOA most of the time, say 80%... That's pretty darn good for the rifle and the shooter. And I do mean that as a compliment because there are a lot of shooters on this forum that can probably do that.

But all I have to do to increase scatter is throw in a little bit of wind, a little bit of rain, a monster energy, a 10 yd dash, a little bit of dusk or Dawn, mirage.... And sub moa can quickly vanish.

The important thing is knowing what you can hit, knowing what you can't hit reliably and choosing your shots accordingly. And I'm speaking as a 30 caliber shooter who has Shot double digit numbers of 0.6 groups on ideal days.

I just worked up loads for a new Howa 1500.
No way it's a 1 MOA rifle, even with good handloads. The box said it was guaranteed

 

[General RE LEE]

Come on deer season.

 

[gulfofmexicoflyfishing]

First of all that’s like cheating with a ctr. Secondly your making me jealous of your left handed model.

It took me 33yrs before I ended up with a left handed bolt rifle so I get it! This thing sits right at 11.3lbs with an empty mag so it’s super tame recoil wise. Certainly feels like the easy button!

 

[n8outdoors]

This is pretty much statistics, as it relates to CONFIDENCE. That means:
Are you happy if half your groups are sub-moa?
Do you require 90%of groups be sub moa?

If you use a standard machine test dispersion coefficient of about 3 (Weibull analysis stuff). THEN
You'd need about twice the precision in a single 5 shot group to have 80% confidence, as compared to expecting 50/50.

Funny how that works out. You're shooting 5 and 20 shot groups. And very roughly speaking your group's doubled.

If a person really has a rifle that will shoot some MOA most of the time, say 80%... That's pretty darn good for the rifle and the shooter. And I do mean that as a compliment because there are a lot of shooters on this forum that can probably do that.

But all I have to do to increase scatter is throw in a little bit of wind, a little bit of rain, a monster energy, a 10 yd dash, a little bit of dusk or Dawn, mirage.... And sub moa can quickly vanish.

The important thing is knowing what you can hit, knowing what you can't hit reliably and choosing your shots accordingly. And I'm speaking as a 30 caliber shooter who has Shot double digit numbers of 0.6 groups on ideal days.

I just worked up loads for a new Howa 1500.
No way it's a 1 MOA rifle, even with good handloads. The box said it was guaranteed

I love it. Real deal response right there an average Joe can understand. I mean, custom rifles are cool, but just serv8ng up honesty!

 

[ridgehopper]

It took me 33yrs before I ended up with a left handed bolt rifle so I get it! This thing sits right at 11.3lbs with an empty mag so it’s super tame recoil wise. Certainly feels like the easy button!

I had a right handed one for years. Actually just sold it to a VERY good buddy as it was right handed and he needed a good accurate rifle. That thing shot so many groups in the .2’s and .3’s. It was just as accurate as my customs. That particular rifle never wondered off zero, ever. My wife took a mule deer at 926 yards, I took a cow elk at 550 and my buddy I sold it to took a bull at 750 (that helped the sell) . It became a safe queen as I moved into some left handed guns so I figured it should go.

 

[bnewt3]

I can't be the only one wondering if its my rifle, or my expectations.

I am only explaining the rifles I have to highlight the progression of inexpensive to higher end, with seemingly no improvement in accuracy... Which is annoying.
I have a used Savage 110 Hunter in 22-250 with a middle of the road Vortex scope... tack driver with 1/4" capability and an average extreme spread (ES) of 1" with no wind. I also have my first big game rifle from 2009 which is a 1st gen Ruger American in 270 win with an inexpensive Leupold scope. Again, very accurate, maybe 3/4 MOA with average ES 1.2". Fast forward to 5 years ago and ordered a (fancy for me) Weatherby Mark 5 Back Country Ti, Leupold Mark 5 scope with Harris Bipod. Accurate rifle, but no more so than my 1st 2 "inexpensive" rifles. I am now testing factory loads for my newest rifle, a Tikka T3X RoughTech in 7mm RM with a Trijicon TenMile scope (Thanks Rokslide for data leading to that decision), SRS Break, Limbsaver recoil pad, MDT Bipod. As easy to shoot and spot as my 22-250. I have shot every factory load I can get my hands on for that rifle minus Norma Bondstrike, HSM Berger VLD and Underwood Nosler Accubond which should be here next week.

For testing, I shoot 5 shot groups, 4 targets (20 rounds), cooling between groups, and measure extreme spread. So far, best 5 shot group is 0.6", however the average on that load (162g ELDX) accross the 20 round test is 1.3". Side Note: I dont really want to hunt with ELDX from horror stories.
Next closesed is Barnes 160g TSX with best group 1.0" and 20 round ES 1.7".

I constantly see post/ media "1/4 MOA all day" bla bla bla. I could claim from my tests, that my T3X is a ".6 MOA rifle"... It can be, but its not. I am aware, I can get more accuracy if I hand load...
Questions:
1) What is your expecatation for an accurate rifle?
2) Are smaller calibers like the 22-250 inherently more accurate than say .284 bullet?
3) Anyone else watch numerous MOA challenges on youtube and feel vindicated against seemingly endless claims of "sub moa"?

So im going to throw my opinion in the ring.

#1 I think we have to set expectations about what is reasonable to expect out of a rifle. I have a T3x superlite in 308 stock @6.2lbs and a Savage 110 Tactical in 6.5CM stock @9lbs. I dont expect them to do the same things. I dont expect the savage to be as accurate and consistent as it is and be as light as the Tikka, just like I dont expect the TIkka to be as easy to shoot or be as consistent over long strings of fire as the Savage. Neither is a bad gun, they have different purposes.
Keep in mind the law of diminishing returns, 20% of the cost gets you 80% of the results. In other words the last 20% towards "perfect" is 80% of the cost. So just because an $800 rifle can be 1/4 moa doesnt mean a $3200 rifle will be 1/16 moa. In modern hunting rifles, more cost almost always means more exotic materials(CF, Ti, etc) in an effort to increase accuracy where it can but more likely to maintain accuracy while also saving weight.
Personally I think any bolt gun chambered in an "accurate" round should be capable of 1 MOA at least. The capabilities of modern manufacturing are such that anything outside that is unacceptable IMO. And companies like Ruger and Savage are showing that cheap guns can be extremely accurate.

Next about #3 and the MOA challenges.

I would guess that a ton, maybe most, of the people that show up/are chosen for these challenges do not or never have done any competition, and have never felt the pressure of that so THAT is likely the #1 reason for "terrible performance". Ive seen alot of rifles on those challenges that were almost certainly 1/4 to 1/2 MOA rifles. But if the shooter doesnt do everything right, you wont see that. I say that to illustrate that I dont think most of those shooters fail because of the rifle.

I have no idea if you can shoot. You have some perfectly respectable groups, so at the very least you have bursts of skill. But either you or your rifle/ammo are struggling to be consistent. The cheapest(and least glamorous/most boring, and also possibly the most productive) thing you can do is spend a bunch of time dry-firing to dial in your fundamentals. A ton of people will develop a flinch with a 7RM in a T3x. Not saying you are, but its a possibility. Rule it out.