Realistic MOA Expectations vs Marketing

[RockAndSage]

I would definitely say you probably just had unrealistic expectations based off marketing and people only sharing their premium groups on the web.

I remember when I got my first $5k custom rifle, and I was just baffled that the first 3 shots didn't go into one hole based off all the bullshit you see online and on social media lol.

Now, 6 guns later and thousands of rounds, I realize that was obviously totally unrealistic from a hunting rifle, at hunting rifle weights.

I would say any moderate sized cartridge gun, around 8lbs is going to play hell consistently shooting sub MOA. Some groups sure, but all the time, not likely.

10lbs and you're starting to be able to manage the recoil a bit more, and hold more steady while breaking the shot. LOTS of sub MOA 5 shot groups will be shot with a 10lb gun.

In a hunting weight rifle, 5 shot .5 MOA groups from a bench aren't even that common in all honesty. I've shot tons of them, but they still aren't the norm every time and I'm happy when I see them.

This honesty is refreshing to hear, and appreciated. People also have a very hard time determining what an accurate rifle is if they've never actually shot one before. They buy a gun advertised as "Sub-MOA", but without that baseline experience of a genuine sub-MOA gun before that, it makes it hard to know how much is them, vs rifle, vs ammo, vs optic issues, etc.

More than a few custom gunsmiths get the bad end of this deal too, knowing they send out a 1/2MOA gun or the like, but the client can't get 2MOA out of it. In my experience, very, very few people can outshoot what their modern hunting guns are capable of.

 

[General RE LEE]

No. “Mean radius” is the average distance to center of all shots fired.

Wouldn't that mean the load is rather accurate? 0.39" off center average at 100 yards seems like an accurate load.

 

[huntnful]

This honesty is refreshing to hear, and appreciated. People also have a very hard time determining what an accurate rifle is if they've never actually shot one before. They buy a gun advertised as "Sub-MOA", but without that baseline experience of a genuine sub-MOA gun before that, it makes it hard to know how much is them, vs rifle, vs ammo, vs optic issues, etc.

More than a few custom gunsmiths get the bad end of this deal too, knowing they send out a 1/2MOA gun or the like, but the client can't get 2MOA out of it. In my experience, very, very few people can outshoot what their modern hunting guns are capable of.

I would say most people actually suck at shooting and won’t shoot to their rifles potential, unless they commit to spending a ton of behind a rifle and learning how to properly shoot. Of course EVERYONE sucks at shooting when they first start, and no rifle is going to change that. But committing to getting better is necessary. I’ve seen so many guys think they didn’t need a rear rest when using a bipod. Like what in the actual hell?? Of course you can hit stuff like that, but actually shooting to test accuracy potential… no way in hell.

 

[Macintosh]

Heck yeah .39" MR it's accurate! But go re-read the "your groups are too small" thread and look at the group on a bell curve. 2/3 of the shots will fall within that first standard deviation, only 1/3 fall into the next 2 SD's...so the area inside the mean radius does represent more shots than the area outside, so I'm being a bit misleading when I say MR tells you where about half your shots land, that's not really correct, because that 1/3 has more variability from center. But MR still only tells you how consistent you are on average--it does not account for how consistent you can rely on. It doesnt account for the outer edge of that group, which is still a significant portion of your shots, so when you land one outside the mean radius, 1) should you be surprised or worried? 2) do you need to correct? 3) do you have an equipment issue needing addressed? Or, perhaps more relevant, 4) you want to take a shot and you want to do so with a very high degree of confidence you will hit--can you do that? In all cases you cant say unless you know where your ES is.

Looking at the 25-round group posted earlier with .39" mean radius, just eyeballing it it appears that 20-25% of the shots fall outside the mean-radius circle of about 3/4". Do you want to know where 75-80% of your shots are going to land, or do you want to know where virtually all of your shots are going to land? That's the difference.

 

[huntnful]

But on the other end. Legit groups are certainly achievable with a well built rifle and consistently loaded ammo. This is a 12 shot group shot at 109 yards from a Lapua case sized magnum cartridge. I would bet a lot of money that this will never happen with a factory 300 PRC or bigger (maybe even 7PRC) paired with factory ammo. So no one should ever expect that from anything factory. The smaller cartridges, recoil less and get substantially easier to shoot also. If you want small groups from factory anything, the smaller the cartridge the better

 

[n8outdoors]

Some really interested comments in here.

Just to be clear.
1) I wasn't suggesting a smaller caliber is more accurate, just a question. Given wind, bullet weight etc, I wouldn't think it to be true. Just a question.
2) I don't necessarily have any expectation on accuracy, seeing how my cheaper guns are just as good. Again, just a question to the community on what YOU all consider to be accurate, and maybe I should have been more specific and stated "factory rifles and loads". I am well aware of MOA claims by manufacturers.

 

[huntnful]

Some really interested comments in here.

Just to be clear.
1) I wasn't suggesting a smaller caliber is more accurate, just a question. Given wind, bullet weight etc, I wouldn't think it to be true. Just a question.
2) I don't necessarily have any expectation on accuracy, seeing how my cheaper guns are just as good. Again, just a question to the community on what YOU all consider to be accurate, and maybe I should have been more specific and stated "factory rifles and loads". I am well aware of MOA claims by manufacturers.

Sub 9lb factory rifle and a decent sized cartridge, paired factory ammo… .75-1.2” 3 shot groups would probably be the norm

 

[cowdisciple]

The only way to surely increase your odds of getting a rifle to shoot to your apparently high standards is to have a gunsmith who really knows what they are doing put something together by hand, ensuring concentricity every step of the way.

How many Tikkas can you buy and try for that cost? Pretty damn good chance at least one of them is going to outshoot the custom gun

 

[Jason Snyder]

Still curious how you are arriving at your average extreme spread.

 

[n8outdoors]

I suspect a huge part of someone thinking a smaller caliber is "more accurate" would be the result of less flinch and recoil anticipation on their part.

I'm not sure I worded that right. Agreed, smaller isn't inherently more accurate, it was an open ended question. That said, I would think (I don't know) a 22-250 drops less and cuts wind better than a 30-06, no?

 

[n8outdoors]

Are you overlaying each group over a singular POA to calculate this, or are you averaging your group size for the four targets?

one target, with 4 bullseyes (one n each corner like the shoot and see). 5 shots at each one, then measure each group. Is there a better way to do it?

 

[Formidilosus]

Wouldn't that mean the load is rather accurate? 0.39" off center average at 100 yards seems like an accurate load.

No- average extreme spread is between 3 to 3.2 times what average distance to center (mean radius) is. Because it is “average”. You can have a rifle that averages .5 MOA MR, but can’t reliably hit a 1.5 MOA target with 5 rounds (or 3, or 10, whatever).

 

[Formidilosus]

one target, with 4 bullseyes (one n each corner like the shoot and see). 5 shots at each one, then measure each group. Is there a better way to do it?

Yes- shoot them all at one target.

 

[Jason Snyder]

one target, with 4 bullseyes (one n each corner like the shoot and see). 5 shots at each one, then measure each group. Is there a better way to do it?

Yes. Two groups might have an identical extreme spread but aren’t at the same POI relative to POA.

Think of using one of the 1.5” orange sticky target dots that have lines dividing them into quadrants. You shoot four groups of five. Each of the targets has a group of five rounds at .5” extreme spread, but in each of the four quadrants. Your overall extreme spread is not .5”. Its the overall spread if you were to overlay all of the groups on the same target.

If you have four different targets, using the above scenario you’d look at it and say my gun shoots .5” every time, when in reality the aggregate is more like 1.2-1.5”.

 

[kevingm1987]

-Probably every hunting rifle with match ammo could shoot a 1 moa group at 100yds, or at least most of them
-Every hunter can't, most of them can't

The biggest factor in the entire argument is the shooter. Most people cant shoot MOA, the guns can, people cant. You have an outdoor range and more variables come into play.

I would bet, if you had a sled that could hold a gun still, locked in the same place, shot by some type of mechanical means, you see most of these rifles can shoot MOA.

 

[SDHNTR]

How many Tikkas can you buy and try for that cost? Pretty damn good chance at least one of them is going to outshoot the custom gun

I don’t disagree

 

[SDHNTR]

I’m also puzzled by people using the term extreme spread as it relates to group size. Not that it doesn’t make sense, this thread is just the first I’ve heard the term used in such manner. In my world ES is in reference to velocity deviation.

 

[huntnful]

How many Tikkas can you buy and try for that cost? Pretty damn good chance at least one of them is going to outshoot the custom gun

There is almost a zero percent chance a factory tikka will out shoot a custom gun of the same chambering. And I’m not saying factory tikkas don’t shoot well. I recommend them to anyone that wants a factory gun. But there isn’t a chance in hell it’s going to outshoot a well built custom rifle with premium components. The factory tikka stock alone would eliminate that chance.

 

[cowdisciple]

There is almost a zero percent chance a factory tikka will out shoot a custom gun of the same chambering. And I’m not saying factory tikkas don’t shoot well. I recommend them to anyone that wants a factory gun. But there isn’t a chance in hell it’s going to outshoot a well built custom rifle with premium components. The factory tikka stock alone would eliminate that chance.

I've never owned a custom gun like that, so I'm not going to argue, except to say that you'd pick the best Tikka and then start upgrading around the barreled action. What percentage of rifle hunters would you say are good enough to realize meaningful performance improvements from that kind of high end outfit over a decently kitted RSS? I'm sure not. I see it a little bit like $1100 Sage top of the line fly rods - they sure are nice, no question, but unless you're a truly expert competition level caster they aren't going to noticeably move the performance needle, and even then it won't be by much.

 

[gulfofmexicoflyfishing]

30rd group today with my first hand loads. Factory CTR 20” 6.5 creed. Glad I listened to @PNWGATOR and bought a tikka. I would say I am an average shooter at best so I’m sure a capable shooter can reduce that spread by a good bit. Either way I am very impressed with it!