Question - can anyone point me to studies of lead vs copper bullets on game?

[rifletuner]

We have a proposal emerging from the Victorian government in Australia to force hunters to use non-lead projectiles for all public land hunting in the state. Are there any scientific studies that compare the different options and actually talk about ant of the issues with copper?

I want to be able to put forward an argument for hunter choice, and at least give them something else to consider. The current thinking of the government workers seems to be lead - bad. Copper - good. Decision made.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

I don't have any studies, but I wish you good luck! Lead bans are just another form of incremental gun control.

 

[Jimmy]

Personally I've been using copper for several years now and they still kill animals. Three shots and three deer. Meh, it works. Seems to make smaller exit wounds. I had a few lead bullets that made just some massive exit holes. My 2 cents

 

[TSimons9]

Papers/Studies — Hunting With Non-Lead

huntingwithnonlead.org

 

[dtrkyman]

Meateater has a video on YouTube I believe, or at least an article on their site.


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[Pharmseller]

Be careful of agenda-fueled “studies.”




P

 

[Austink47]

Just out of curiosity, is there a specific animal they are worried about?

Unleaded hunting: Are copper bullets and lead-based bullets equally effective for killing big game?

Semi-jacketed lead-cored or copper-based homogenous rifle bullets are commonly used for hunting big game. Ever since their introduction in the 1990’s, copper-based bullets have not been widely accepted by hunters due to limited supply, higher ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This may not be exactly what you are looking for but I found it interesting.

 

[rifletuner]

I don't have any studies, but I wish you good luck! Lead bans are just another form of incremental gun control.

Agreed. It needs to be opposed as a mater of principle, but also because I disagree with their premise.

 

[rifletuner]

Personally I've been using copper for several years now and they still kill animals. Three shots and three deer. Meh, it works. Seems to make smaller exit wounds. I had a few lead bullets that made just some massive exit holes. My 2 cents

Yes, and there is a significant amount of anecdotal observation from hunters giving examples of copper bullets giving poor or reduced killing efficacy. But all the studies I can find all seem to conclude much the same thing - that lead and copper bullets kill equally effectively.

 

[rifletuner]

Be careful of agenda-fueled “studies.”




P

Yes, that is what I am trying to avoid. All the studies I have found all seem to be near identical in concluding lead and copper bullets for hunting are effective.

 

[JFK]

There probably aren’t many objective studies. Most of them are funded by groups who wish to see lead banned.

Anecdotally, and completely unscientific, but I live in California, so must use copper bullets but also use them out of state and they’ve worked fine. Call it 30 or so animals I’ve killed or been around to see killed with copper and they’ve dropped stuff pretty consistently.

 

[WCB]

Yes, and there is a significant amount of anecdotal observation from hunters giving examples of copper bullets giving poor or reduced killing efficacy. But all the studies I can find all seem to conclude much the same thing - that lead and copper bullets kill equally effectively.

I mean dead is dead so both are equally effective. Not sure who they were but I know at Sheep Show there was an organization there pushing copper bullets and had models, gel, video etc.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

I mean dead is dead so both are equally effective. Not sure who they were but I know at Sheep Show there was an organization there pushing copper bullets and had models, gel, video etc.

Probably hammer. But be careful, they're worse than the sunshine carpet cleaners.....

Sunshine Carpet Cleaners

Sunshine Carpet Cleaners is the name of a fictional carpet cleaning business, which doubles as a front used to brainwash people and recruit them into a religious cult. They are only mentioned in "The Checks". While cleaning the carpets at Yankee Stadium, they choose to recruit Mr. Wilhelm, but...

seinfeld.fandom.com

 

[Jason Snyder]

Probably hammer. But be careful, they're worse than the sunshine carpet cleaners.....

Sunshine Carpet Cleaners

Sunshine Carpet Cleaners is the name of a fictional carpet cleaning business, which doubles as a front used to brainwash people and recruit them into a religious cult. They are only mentioned in "The Checks". While cleaning the carpets at Yankee Stadium, they choose to recruit Mr. Wilhelm, but...

seinfeld.fandom.com

Their bullets seem to work just fine.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Their bullets seem to work just fine.

It as a joke. Because the hammer people are like a cult....I apologize for the humor.

"Hammer away".

 

[Jason Snyder]

It as a joke. Because the hammer people are like a cult....I apologize for the humor.

"Hammer away".

No need to apologize. Carry on.

 

[northernalpine]

But all the studies I can find all seem to conclude much the same thing - that lead and copper bullets kill equally effectively.

Ask any duck hunter if they are the same.

I think everyone is surprised that the commonwealth lets a prison colony have arms to begin with. (Joking, I’m in WA every year and have many good friends there )

I would imagine a similar argument is being made about lead causing irreversible environmental damage and accidental ingestion by any wild species in a given habitat is a credible threat to a healthy ecosystem.

I also would assume the folks in Canberra imagine all hunters look like bogans and are just spraying lead in all directions from their rusted out Ute with a “CU in the NT” sticker on the bumper, but I digress.

Copper bullets “work”, but so would nearly any projectile of relative density moving at the same speed if given a limited set of parameters.

Some arguments, which may be double-edged swords, can be made, but it’s hard to objectively have a conversation with someone when they have an agenda.

The problem is that you would be arguing in terms of financial burden, ballistic superiority, and effectiveness in causing mortal wounds while the opposition is arguing in environmental terms. Those narratives are on two completely different planets.

 

[rifletuner]

I mean dead is dead so both are equally effective. Not sure who they were but I know at Sheep Show there was an organization there pushing copper bullets and had models, gel, video etc.

I have shot about 40 animals with copper bullets, and seen about the the same number shot by other hunters. They do kill, but also have more limitations that lead bullets from my observation. Copper bullets kill very differently than lead bullets, and I prefer the performance of lead bullets in most situations.

 

[ddavis_1313]

Be careful of agenda-fueled “studies.”




P

Kind of like “peer reviewed journals”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1808337793904697675

Or the weaponization of “climate change”….


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[rifletuner]

Well, I have spent the last 2 days reading every study I can find comparing lead bullets to copper. I am not finding any scientific paper that talks about copper bullets not killing as well as lead. Every study I have found has stated that lead and copper bullets perform the same. And where they actually mention wound channels, they state that these are the same between lead and copper as well.

And now that these studies have been out for years, the newer studies point to these and pretty much all conclude that hunters should adopt no lead bullets. Every study basically states that lead is bad and should be removed from the environment, and copper ammo is the way forward when it comes to hunting.

There is no mention of issues about the specific features of would channels. No mention that copper bullets tend to perform better at speed vs lead which will typically expand better as velocities get lower. Most studies conclude that animals shot with copper travel further before becoming incapacitated, but this is universally dismissed in the studies as being negligible and irrelevant.

In the absence of anything that I can point to that refutes the government claims about the benefits of moving to copper ammo is going to make it impossible to put forward an argument for lead bullets that they would consider.