Puffy-over or under shell?

[Nine Banger]

Are y’all triple over sizing shells so that the don’t compress a puffy?

What are y'all using for your hard shells and wind layers over puffies or 2 layers of puffies?

Especially if the primary purpose is for excluding wind and melting snow? Not rain.

Especially over your puffy pants if you were sitting in the snow.

 

[Cactus kid]

Do you wear your puffy jacket over or under your shell?


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Depends on the puffy. To me there are two types of puffys: Midlayer puffys and glassing puffys.

Midlayers are thinner and are ment to be worn under shells. Designed to be warn while moving in cold temps. I dont use these puffys much as a A solid fleece or flannel can also fill this roll and is better suited- more breathable, doesnt compress over time, more durable, cheaper.

A shell and a midweight fleece will keep you warm at almost any temps if you are moving.

A Glassing puffy is different. In the mountanneering world it would be called a belay puffy. Made popular by alpinist Mark Twight, a good belay puffy (or in our world, glassing puffy) has some key fetures:

-Synthetic fill (or some of the new waterproof down) that is warm when wet, a LOT of fill

-Sized to fit OVER every layer

-Windproof, NOT waterproof, for better breathabliity but still maintaining warmth.

-Durable

this layer is taken on and off all the time, too hot to wear doing anything physical. ITs okay to put this layer on when you are covered in rain or sweat, and it will keep you warm, allow you to dry, and allow you to sit long periods of time with little movment (like glassing).

Kifaru lost park parka fills this roll very well. I use an Arcteryx Nuclei SV jacket (not the FL version, i think the SV is discontuned). Others in this category would be the patagonia DAS parka.

 

[huntsd]

Depends on the puffy. To me there are two types of puffys: Midlayer puffys and glassing puffys.

Midlayers are thinner and are ment to be worn under shells. Designed to be warn while moving in cold temps. I dont use these puffys much as a A solid fleece or flannel can also fill this roll and is better suited- more breathable, doesnt compress over time, more durable, cheaper.

A shell and a midweight fleece will keep you warm at almost any temps if you are moving.

A Glassing puffy is different. In the mountanneering world it would be called a belay puffy. Made popular by alpinist Mark Twight, a good belay puffy (or in our world, glassing puffy) has some key fetures:

-Synthetic fill (or some of the new waterproof down) that is warm when wet, a LOT of fill

-Sized to fit OVER every layer

-Windproof, NOT waterproof, for better breathabliity but still maintaining warmth.

-Durable

this layer is taken on and off all the time, too hot to wear doing anything physical. ITs okay to put this layer on when you are covered in rain or sweat, and it will keep you warm, allow you to dry, and allow you to sit long periods of time with little movment (like glassing).

Kifaru lost park parka fills this roll very well. I use an Arcteryx Nuclei SV jacket (not the FL version, i think the SV is discontuned). Others in this category would be the patagonia DAS parka.

I see the comparison to a building and having the insulation inside of the frame ect.. but for western hunting these seems correct. I don’t think I’d ever hike in a puffy. When I get to my spot I don’t want to take off clothes to put more on. Seems simple to just slap a layer on the outside and get to glassing. I’ve been wearing kuiu puffy pants for years. Man they are warm!

 

[MT_Wyatt]

Depends on the puffy. To me there are two types of puffys: Midlayer puffys and glassing puffys.

Midlayers are thinner and are ment to be worn under shells. Designed to be warn while moving in cold temps. I dont use these puffys much as a A solid fleece or flannel can also fill this roll and is better suited- more breathable, doesnt compress over time, more durable, cheaper.

A shell and a midweight fleece will keep you warm at almost any temps if you are moving.

A Glassing puffy is different. In the mountanneering world it would be called a belay puffy. Made popular by alpinist Mark Twight, a good belay puffy (or in our world, glassing puffy) has some key fetures:

-Synthetic fill (or some of the new waterproof down) that is warm when wet, a LOT of fill

-Sized to fit OVER every layer

-Windproof, NOT waterproof, for better breathabliity but still maintaining warmth.

-Durable

this layer is taken on and off all the time, too hot to wear doing anything physical. ITs okay to put this layer on when you are covered in rain or sweat, and it will keep you warm, allow you to dry, and allow you to sit long periods of time with little movment (like glassing).

Kifaru lost park parka fills this roll very well. I use an Arcteryx Nuclei SV jacket (not the FL version, i think the SV is discontuned). Others in this category would be the patagonia DAS parka.

This is a good take - I can’t fit a puffy bigger than a Grumman down (ie 5oz +) under one of my hard shells. My beta AR is my most generous layering true rain layer, and can’t do more than a Grumman under.

Late season I have a Sitka hyperdown jacket - was stuck in all day “snain” a couple weeks ago and no shell would fit over such a large parka…..same goes for late season puffy pants.

 

[elsb0048]

What are y'all using for your hard shells and wind layers over puffies or 2 layers of puffies?

Especially if the primary purpose is for excluding wind and melting snow? Not rain.

Especially over your puffy pants if you were sitting in the snow.

I have kuiu kutana pants and a marmot alpinist shell. I mostly wear a Large for most layers but have both of these in XL for clearing underlayers.

I use synthetic puffy layers for the most part and have a rab generator alpine static puffy and mountain hardwear compressor puffy pants.

For sitting in the snow I think I would mostly rely on sit pads not shell pants to keep puffs dry-ish.

I rarely hunt in conditions colder than 25F or so and I imagine that late season Montana and Wyoming might require a different set of layers.

 

[Nine Banger]

I have kuiu kutana pants and a marmot alpinist shell. I mostly wear a Large for most layers but have both of these in XL for clearing underlayers.

Thanks, for the pants I'm looking at Kutana/Guide, SG M5, Arcteryx Alpha, Patagonia Triolet and some cheaper stuff like Marmot Precip Full Zip. There's a great Varustaleka shell pant option but it's out of stock and I emailed them to see if they will have more this year.

For sitting in the snow I think I would mostly rely on sit pads not shell pants to keep puffs dry-ish.

I rarely hunt in conditions colder than 25F or so and I imagine that late season Montana and Wyoming might require a different set of layers.

I'm gearing up for worst case, maybe negative temps, snowy and windy and being mostly stationary but gear that can work for laying on the ground yet still be packable.

 

[ThorM465]

What are y'all using for your hard shells and wind layers over puffies or 2 layers of puffies?

Especially if the primary purpose is for excluding wind and melting snow? Not rain.

Especially over your puffy pants if you were sitting in the snow.

I like my First Lite Uncompahgre Foundry a lot for the outer shell especially if hunting in snow temps.

Don't sit in snow, pack a lightweight chair.

 

[elsb0048]

Thanks, for the pants I'm looking at Kutana/Guide, SG M5, Arcteryx Alpha, Patagonia Triolet and some cheaper stuff like Marmot Precip Full Zip. There's a great Varustaleka shell pant option but it's out of stock and I emailed them to see if they will have more this year.


I'm gearing up for worst case, maybe negative temps, snowy and windy and being mostly stationary but on the laying on the ground yet still packable.

If you're truly Sub-Zero fahrenheit resting on snow the hard shell is probably not the important part and just about any 2.5 or 3L she'll will do. You're unlikely to need or use it much. You probably do need a different class of puff though, box baffle (not sewn through) with ~300g of 800-900fp down. Some of those jackets have a light membraned outer fabric from gore to help with blown snow. Seems like you're getting down to wanting boot covers or pac boots or the like for temps like that.

Feels to me like hardshells are much more used in transition temps near freezing where you're more likely to get precip and some of it as rain

 

[fngTony]

@Nine Banger this is what you’re looking for https://www.sierra.com/tipsy-elves-bring-the-heat-snow-suit-waterproof-insulated~p~7jajx/

 

[fngTony]

For a serious answer I wear mine under my shell. My puffy is 6.5oz of fill so about the biggest you can layer over. It wouldn’t be enough for long cold sits but those situations is when I swap the hardshell for a ski shell as they are insulated as well as wind/snow proof.

 

[Nine Banger]

@Nine Banger this is what you’re looking for https://www.sierra.com/tipsy-elves-bring-the-heat-snow-suit-waterproof-insulated~p~7jajx/

That's perfect except for the lack of side zippers.

I'm surprised it doesn't have a rear access flap.

 

[Macintosh]

Depends on the puffy. To me there are two types of puffys: Midlayer puffys and glassing puffys.

Midlayers are thinner and are ment to be worn under shells. Designed to be warn while moving in cold temps. I dont use these puffys much as a A solid fleece or flannel can also fill this roll and is better suited- more breathable, doesnt compress over time, more durable, cheaper.

A shell and a midweight fleece will keep you warm at almost any temps if you are moving.

A Glassing puffy is different. In the mountanneering world it would be called a belay puffy. Made popular by alpinist Mark Twight, a good belay puffy (or in our world, glassing puffy) has some key fetures:

-Synthetic fill (or some of the new waterproof down) that is warm when wet, a LOT of fill

-Sized to fit OVER every layer

-Windproof, NOT waterproof, for better breathabliity but still maintaining warmth.

-Durable

this layer is taken on and off all the time, too hot to wear doing anything physical. ITs okay to put this layer on when you are covered in rain or sweat, and it will keep you warm, allow you to dry, and allow you to sit long periods of time with little movment (like glassing).

Kifaru lost park parka fills this roll very well. I use an Arcteryx Nuclei SV jacket (not the FL version, i think the SV is discontuned). Others in this category would be the patagonia DAS parka.

Down or synthetic, belay jackets were standard issue LONG before Twight was a name anyone knew.

Climbing you almost always wear a puffy over your outer layer because you’re wearing a harness, which always goes over your outer layer. Taking the outer layer off to get a puffy underneath would necessitate taking the harness off, or at a minimum loosening it enough to rearrange whats under it. You’re literally hanging your ass into outer space hundreds of feet off the ground, so taking your harness off is something you dont do without a great deal of forethought. Then as soon as you’re climbing again you take the puffy off, so you’d end up repeating that many times a day. Consequently I think its fair to say that a “belay jacket” is pretty much always worn over your outer layer.

I rarely wear a heavier down jacket under an outer layer. I have a 6oz 900 fill down jacket that I wear under sometimes. Its very warm, it compresses a little but is still quite warm. About the only reason I wear it underneath is to either protect the fabric from tears because I’m moving through brush very slowly and chilled, it’s screaming cold and I don’t want to trash my expensive down jacket; or because I am archery hunting from a tree stand and the down fabric is loud so I wear a soft shell over it in order to be quieter drawing the bow. I use a midweight puffy as a mid layer pretty frequently, something like 2.5-3 ounces of down fill or less, that’s a great mid layer for very cold temps that is extremely packable and also functions as an outer layer if I don’t need the shell. It’s still much warmer than most mid layers, and it’s much more packable and lighter than any mid layers that would be as warm, so I don’t really see this as an active insulation layer as much as simply a versatile insulation layer.

Also if its cold enough to really need a heavy puffy, liquid water generally freezes onto the outside of the fabric before it has a chance to saturate the insulation hardly at all. Climbing, that happens when an ice climb is gushing water even though it’s only five or 10°F, and the wind is blowing the spray onto you. You can shake the ice off when you shed the jacket to climb, and youd be surprised how much water you can sit under and keep it dry. Generally the water is going to come from the ice thats frozen to the outside of your shell, where it’s going to melt when you cover it with the puffy—that is the reason for some people preferring synthetic. In that case wearing down underneath would be great, but there’s that harness issue again. (Not to mention getting a freezing shower when you take your shell off). Luckily when hunting that’s not so much of a problem. I don’t stand under gushing frozen waterfalls when I’m hunting, so in temps when I’m wearing a jacket that heavy the precip is usually already frozen. That means when I pull it on over an outer layer Im not covered in ice that is going to melt. It’s pretty easy ime to stay dry in those conditions. Its temps rigjt around freezing when water ISNT freezing that are more difficult. In my experience in those conditions, it’s not so much about the amount of insulation, as it is about managing moisture. To me the puffy under the shell thing is for situations where that makes more sense for managing moisture, as much as it is about it managing heat better.

 

[Fritz D]

I never could get on board with a down belay jacket? I always tear mine up or get them soaked? I have one very warm and fairly sturdy down parka, a Mountain Equipment K7-but that is more of a Bivy jacket to my mind.
My favorite belay jacket is the ME Citadel or the old style Patagonia DAS. Haven’t tried any of the newer belay jackets.

Edit: sorry about the rabbit trail, folks.

 

[medvedyt]

I never could get on board with a down belay jacket? I always tear mine up or get them soaked? I have one very warm and fairly sturdy down parka, a Mountain Equipment K7-but that is more of a Bivy jacket to my mind.
My favorite belay jacket is the ME Citadel or the old style Patagonia DAS. Haven’t tried any of the newer belay jackets.

Edit: sorry about the rabbit trail, folks.

Depends on the puffy. To me there are two types of puffys: Midlayer puffys and glassing puffys.

Midlayers are thinner and are ment to be worn under shells. Designed to be warn while moving in cold temps. I dont use these puffys much as a A solid fleece or flannel can also fill this roll and is better suited- more breathable, doesnt compress over time, more durable, cheaper.

A shell and a midweight fleece will keep you warm at almost any temps if you are moving.

A Glassing puffy is different. In the mountanneering world it would be called a belay puffy. Made popular by alpinist Mark Twight, a good belay puffy (or in our world, glassing puffy) has some key fetures:

-Synthetic fill (or some of the new waterproof down) that is warm when wet, a LOT of fill

-Sized to fit OVER every layer

-Windproof, NOT waterproof, for better breathabliity but still maintaining warmth.

-Durable

this layer is taken on and off all the time, too hot to wear doing anything physical. ITs okay to put this layer on when you are covered in rain or sweat, and it will keep you warm, allow you to dry, and allow you to sit long periods of time with little movment (like glassing).

Kifaru lost park parka fills this roll very well. I use an Arcteryx Nuclei SV jacket (not the FL version, i think the SV is discontuned). Others in this category would be the patagonia DAS parka.

it was done before the time of mark twight. i think he copied the idea of the belay jacket when he was in chamonix.i was in that aera that i trained for years and we never heard that word bellay jacket ... we used the word veste de bivouac that was in down with strong canvas or ventile outside and used as well for protection like the bellay jacket over some material but lighter but stronger than any down jacket or parka. mark certainly promoted the minimalist way of doing stuff and pushed to use of synthetic fill by makers for the now called bellay jacket. just my 2 cents on that.

 

[medvedyt]

Down or synthetic, belay jackets were standard issue LONG before Twight was a name anyone knew.

Climbing you almost always wear a puffy over your outer layer because you’re wearing a harness, which always goes over your outer layer. Taking the outer layer off to get a puffy underneath would necessitate taking the harness off, or at a minimum loosening it enough to rearrange whats under it. You’re literally hanging your ass into outer space hundreds of feet off the ground, so taking your harness off is something you dont do without a great deal of forethought. Then as soon as you’re climbing again you take the puffy off, so you’d end up repeating that many times a day. Consequently I think its fair to say that a “belay jacket” is pretty much always worn over your outer layer.

I rarely wear a heavier down jacket under an outer layer. I have a 6oz 900 fill down jacket that I wear under sometimes. Its very warm, it compresses a little but is still quite warm. About the only reason I wear it underneath is to either protect the fabric from tears because I’m moving through brush very slowly and chilled, it’s screaming cold and I don’t want to trash my expensive down jacket; or because I am archery hunting from a tree stand and the down fabric is loud so I wear a soft shell over it in order to be quieter drawing the bow. I use a midweight puffy as a mid layer pretty frequently, something like 2.5-3 ounces of down fill or less, that’s a great mid layer for very cold temps that is extremely packable and also functions as an outer layer if I don’t need the shell. It’s still much warmer than most mid layers, and it’s much more packable and lighter than any mid layers that would be as warm, so I don’t really see this as an active insulation layer as much as simply a versatile insulation layer.

Also if its cold enough to really need a heavy puffy, liquid water generally freezes onto the outside of the fabric before it has a chance to saturate the insulation hardly at all. Climbing, that happens when an ice climb is gushing water even though it’s only five or 10°F, and the wind is blowing the spray onto you. You can shake the ice off when you shed the jacket to climb, and youd be surprised how much water you can sit under and keep it dry. Generally the water is going to come from the ice thats frozen to the outside of your shell, where it’s going to melt when you cover it with the puffy—that is the reason for some people preferring synthetic. In that case wearing down underneath would be great, but there’s that harness issue again. (Not to mention getting a freezing shower when you take your shell off). Luckily when hunting that’s not so much of a problem. I don’t stand under gushing frozen waterfalls when I’m hunting, so in temps when I’m wearing a jacket that heavy the precip is usually already frozen. That means when I pull it on over an outer layer Im not covered in ice that is going to melt. It’s pretty easy ime to stay dry in those conditions. Its temps rigjt around freezing when water ISNT freezing that are more difficult. In my experience in those conditions, it’s not so much about the amount of insulation, as it is about managing moisture. To me the puffy under the shell thing is for situations where that makes more sense for managing moisture, as much as it is about it managing heat better.

i absolutely agree with you and the origin of belay jacket. i imagine not easy for a non french speaker to use veste de bivouac lol they used a lot the ventile and down in the 50s so nothing really new.

 

[Cactus kid]

it was done before the time of mark twight. i think he copied the idea of the belay jacket when he was in chamonix.i was in that aera that i trained for years and we never heard that word bellay jacket ... we used the word veste de bivouac that was in down with strong canvas or ventile outside and used as well for protection like the bellay jacket over some material but lighter but stronger than any down jacket or parka. mark certainly promoted the minimalist way of doing stuff and pushed to use of synthetic fill by makers for the now called bellay jacket. just my 2 cents on that.

it was done before the time of mark twight. i think he copied the idea of the belay jacket when he was in chamonix.i was in that aera that i trained for years and we never heard that word bellay jacket ... we used the word veste de bivouac that was in down with strong canvas or ventile outside and used as well for protection like the bellay jacket over some material but lighter but stronger than any down jacket or parka. mark certainly promoted the minimalist way of doing stuff and pushed to use of synthetic fill by makers for the now called bellay jacket. just my 2 cents on that.

Thanks for the info! Im not a climber, i am only familiar with mark twight from reading his books (looking for tidbits i could use for hunting- like the belay jacket). I didn't think he invented the idea, just made the idea more popular.

 

[Macintosh]

Its a tangent but not really. Hunting in the mountains is just being in the mountains, same as climbing or backpacking or mountaineering or whatever. They each have different demands but at the core its the same thing…you stop moving for long enough to cool down, so you throw on a hat and an extra layer to stay warm. Doing it “only one way” (ie only under a shell, or only over a shell) would be akin to only shooting prone and never even thinking about any other position. It works well when conditions and situation are ideal for it, problem is conditions and situation is not always the same or ideal.

I learned to stay warm climbing mountains in the winter from my dad in the 1970’s. He and all his buddies carried down jackets to pull on any time we stopped. Most of that equipment was old by the time I saw it in the mid 70’s. Interestingly, they sometimes wore them under a shell (“60/40 cloth” at the time), sometimes over it. Ice climbers have been carrying around down jackets in a small pack or a stuff sac clipped to their harness since ice tools with curved picks were invented in the late 1960’s. I think its fair to say this has been old news since long before most of us were born.

 

[medvedyt]

Thanks for the info! Im not a climber, i am only familiar with mark twight from reading his books (looking for tidbits i could use for hunting- like the belay jacket). I didn't think he invented the idea, just made the idea more popular.

yes i think he made popular things for the english speaking market as again some wording in french can be hard to understand or pronounce. but i do agree as well that some mountaineering is giving now to the hunters a lot of support in material and nutrition. i always said that the gucci hunting brands were just copies of what was used for decades in mountaineering gear.

 

[medvedyt]

Its a tangent but not really. Hunting in the mountains is just being in the mountains, same as climbing or backpacking or mountaineering or whatever. They each have different demands but at the core its the same thing…you stop moving for long enough to cool down, so you throw on a hat and an extra layer to stay warm. Doing it “only one way” (ie only under a shell, or only over a shell) would be akin to only shooting prone and never even thinking about any other position. It works well when conditions and situation are ideal for it, problem is conditions and situation is not always the same or ideal.

I learned to stay warm climbing mountains in the winter from my dad in the 1970’s. He and all his buddies carried down jackets to pull on any time we stopped. Most of that equipment was old by the time I saw it in the mid 70’s. Interestingly, they sometimes wore them under a shell (“60/40 cloth” at the time), sometimes over it. Ice climbers have been carrying around down jackets in a small pack or a stuff sac clipped to their harness since ice tools with curved picks were invented in the late 1960’s. I think its fair to say this has been old news since long before most of us were born.

indeed.

 

[Poser]

yes i think he made popular things for the english speaking market as again some wording in french can be hard to understand or pronounce. but i do agree as well that some mountaineering is giving now to the hunters a lot of support in material and nutrition. i always said that the gucci hunting brands were just copies of what was used for decades in mountaineering gear.

I started climbing around the time/a little bit before “Extreme Alpinism” was released. I never interpreted that Twight “invented” the belay jacket, it’s just more along the lines that he codified a lot of Alpinism methodology. Much of the information in the book wasn’t really available outside of very tight circles of climbing and, for that matter, the Chamonix climbers weren’t spending the off season bench pressing and doing heavy squats, so, in my mind at least, he synthesized, formalized and codified a lot of methodology and training techniques and, somehow, managed to make a career out of it all.