Puffy jackets

[Maverick1]

I’m looking to drop a truck payment on a high end puffy jacket. I’ve narrowed it down I think to the KUIU Superdown pro or the stone glacier Grumman. Just looking for any advice or thoughts on these if anyone has used one or both on the mountain.


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https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...lvin-aerolite-leaves-off.243794/#post-2373474

 

[switchback7]

Also, keep in mind that First Lite will be coming out with a waterproof insulated jacket soon. It would be heavier but theoretically more durable and warmer.

Do you have a link to this news? or do you have some sort of inside information? lol

 

[cmahoney]

Is first lite China like Kuiu?


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[Benjblt]

Do you have a link to this news? or do you have some sort of inside information? lol

One of these episodes. I don't remember which. Jordan made the comment that it was coming.

Gear Talk | MeatEater Podcasts

MeatEater’s Gear Talk Podcast with Janis Putelis and Jordan Budd dives into the details and efficacy of the gear they use in the backcountry. From comparative reviews to complete pack dumps for specific adventures, Janis and Jordan explore the intricacies of different products, manufacturers, and...

www.themeateater.com

 

[switchback7]

One of these episodes. I don't remember which. Jordan made the comment that it was coming.

Gear Talk | MeatEater Podcasts

MeatEater’s Gear Talk Podcast with Janis Putelis and Jordan Budd dives into the details and efficacy of the gear they use in the backcountry. From comparative reviews to complete pack dumps for specific adventures, Janis and Jordan explore the intricacies of different products, manufacturers, and...

www.themeateater.com

sweet! thanks.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Is first lite China like Kuiu?


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I think it's China / Taiwan / Vietnam depending on the piece

 

[cmahoney]

I think it's China / Taiwan / Vietnam depending on the piece

Taiwan is a free country, I’m trying to avoid the commies after the baloons.


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[Dejhavu]

I use a KUIU puffy under a lighter weight hard shell jacket such as the KUIU Guide jacket. I also pack the same puffy jacket in my bird hunting vest for late season chukar hunts on cold days and put it on when I sit down and take a break.

 

[sneaky]

True, you are exactly right. That’s what SG is showing.

That said, what they proved is that their treated down will generate the heat, but then it won’t saturate with the moisture that is baked/moved away from your body. Most down layers immediately lose all insulation when they get moist, which is why heavy wool has kept its place in military applications and even cold, wet hunting environments. What SG proved is that not only would their puff coat generate the heat, but it wouldn’t do what most down layers do when they get damp, which is loose insulation value. The moisture can move through the down and into the atmosphere instead of soaking into it and saturating it.

But you’re correct, the base layers are important. If you buy the treated down but then wear a cotton t-shirt underneath, you’re effed. You have to have your system set up properly from skin layer out.

All you have to do is layer over the down with a synthetic piece, it'll pull the moisture out of the down. Geese and ducks do just fine without treated down. It's marketing, pure and simple. Once you get it wet a few times and strip that "waterproofing" off the down, you're left with what's worked naturally for eons.

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[nobody]

All you have to do is layer over the down with a synthetic piece, it'll pull the moisture out of the down. Geese and ducks do just fine without treated down. It's marketing, pure and simple. Once you get it wet a few times and strip that "waterproofing" off the down, you're left with what's worked naturally for eons.

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Fair enough, but just playing devil’s advocate here, doesn’t that nullify the purpose of an ultralight puff jacket? If the goal is to carry more performance and warmth for less weight, a 12 oz non-waterproof puff that requires an additional 12 oz of synthetic layering to help it perform in damp conditions kills the “ultralight” aspect of it. Or you just carry the water resistant down SG puff and save that weight for more food. Not trying to argue, just creating dialogue. I realize it’s all splitting hairs.

 

[madcalfe]

Fair enough, but just playing devil’s advocate here, doesn’t that nullify the purpose of an ultralight puff jacket? If the goal is to carry more performance and warmth for less weight, a 12 oz non-waterproof puff that requires an additional 12 oz of synthetic layering to help it perform in damp conditions kills the “ultralight” aspect of it. Or you just carry the water resistant down SG puff and save that weight for more food. Not trying to argue, just creating dialogue. I realize it’s all splitting hairs.

uhhhh no.. if your going to be hunting in a wet environment. you should always be wearing a hard shell (rain jacket) over your puffy treated down or not. Also puffys aren't built to be bashing through the timber.

 

[justinspicher]

Never worn a Grumman, but I do own a Superdown Pro. One feature that hasn’t been mentioned is the SD Pro has pit zips. While it’s not a jacket I’m going to hike in much, I found them very useful at maintaining temperature while light hiking was required. Mostly between glassing spots in late season weather instead of taking it off and on.


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I have two of these, one is a full zip, the other is a pullover. They are “weather resistant”. I have worn the full zip on a 35 day trip to Alaska, where it rained almost the entire time. Never even came close to getting wet. The pullover is in blaze orange and I wear it for the rifle seasons here in Colorado. I also just wore it on a bird hunt in SD and it was cold as I’ve ever been in with blowing snow. I was nice and warm.

The only downside to these jackets is that they are designed for hikers, so while they are light and the zipper can be difficult at times. So far the durability of these jackets have been a non issue for me.

 

[nobody]

uhhhh no.. if your going to be hunting in a wet environment. you should always be wearing a hard shell (rain jacket) over your puffy traded down or not. Also puffys aren't built to be bashing through the timber.

Agreed on a rain jacket, but I think we are talking about different things. Rain is one thing, moisture movement next to skin because you’re wet on the “inside” is another. I’m talking about moisture moving from skin layer to the outside, not keeping moisture outside of the puffy from infiltrating into it.

What I was saying in that post is that Stone Glacier’s treated down will move moisture from inner layers to the outside atmosphere without the down becoming saturated and losing its loft. Traditional down will saturate with moisture as it moves from skin layer out, and lose its insulation properties. If you have to carry an additional synthetic layer to accomplish the same purpose with a traditional down garment, why not just use the water resistant product? This all assumes that Stone Glacier’s marketing is 100% accurate, and it also assumes that all down garments actually do saturate and hold moisture as much as everybody says they will.

A real rainstorm is a different conversation, and you are correct, I never go anywhere without a rain jacket in the bottom of my pack.

And ditto on the lack of durability of a puffy coat.

I’m not sure how else to explain it, sorry if I’m not making sense.

 

[ChrisS]

I have the superdown pro and a cheap cheap cheap ultralight puffy from TJ Maxx. I love that cheap one. It's like a 15D shell and probably made with seagull feathers, but it's light and packable and it was $35 and going on 5 years now. That's my early season puffy. I prefer that over my Eddie Bauer microtherm, which isn't much better than a light flannel shirt. The superdown is my late season puffy for temps under 25, it's great, I don't do much with it other than take it out of the pack, put it on, take it off and put it back in the pack when I'm moving. It's warm for sure. And light and fragile. But that's the tradeoff. I do think that it is cut a little too big for a layering piece. I don't think I can fit it under my Kuiu Yukon, which is the same size (XL).

 

[68Plexi]

I have the superdown pro and a cheap cheap cheap ultralight puffy from TJ Maxx. I love that cheap one. It's like a 15D shell and probably made with seagull feathers, but it's light and packable and it was $35 and going on 5 years now. That's my early season puffy. I prefer that over my Eddie Bauer microtherm, which isn't much better than a light flannel shirt. The superdown is my late season puffy for temps under 25, it's great, I don't do much with it other than take it out of the pack, put it on, take it off and put it back in the pack when I'm moving. It's warm for sure. And light and fragile. But that's the tradeoff. I do think that it is cut a little too big for a layering piece. I don't think I can fit it under my Kuiu Yukon, which is the same size (XL).

The SD Pro is designed larger so it can be worn over other layers however, it fits fine either over or under my Yukon. XL here too. I’ve got a really cheap thinner puffy (duck feathers mostly) for early season too. Good call!


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[Gseith]

I’ve had both and sold the kuiu. The SG is a lot warmer.
Both have a fragile shell in my opinion. Bought my wife a arcteryx puffy. She gets cold easy and the arcteryx keeps her warm while we’re sitting. The outer fabric seems tougher also which I like. I would recommend one of them. Weighs a little more than the SG but it’s a great coat.

 

[awbowhunter]

I have a sitka Kelvin lite, Stone Glacier Grumman, and an Arcteryx Cerium. Really like all three but the Arcteryx seems to be the warmest and best at blocking wind. I like the extra length the SG seems to have.

 

[sneaky]

Agreed on a rain jacket, but I think we are talking about different things. Rain is one thing, moisture movement next to skin because you’re wet on the “inside” is another. I’m talking about moisture moving from skin layer to the outside, not keeping moisture outside of the puffy from infiltrating into it.

What I was saying in that post is that Stone Glacier’s treated down will move moisture from inner layers to the outside atmosphere without the down becoming saturated and losing its loft. Traditional down will saturate with moisture as it moves from skin layer out, and lose its insulation properties. If you have to carry an additional synthetic layer to accomplish the same purpose with a traditional down garment, why not just use the water resistant product? This all assumes that Stone Glacier’s marketing is 100% accurate, and it also assumes that all down garments actually do saturate and hold moisture as much as everybody says they will.

A real rainstorm is a different conversation, and you are correct, I never go anywhere without a rain jacket in the bottom of my pack.

And ditto on the lack of durability of a puffy coat.

I’m not sure how else to explain it, sorry if I’m not making sense.

Treated down doesn't move moisture, it just keeps moisture from soaking into the down. That is, until that treatment wears off and you have untreated down again. Changes in microclimate is what moves moisture. That's why even a ridiculously light synthetic layer over a down jacket, or a down bag, pulls moisture through the down to the outside. Cold air hits the synthetic outer and creates the draw of the moisture in the down layer to the outer layer. Moisture doesn't get stuck in the down but instead it is in the synthetic layer where it dries and doesn't compromise the down.

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[Greenbelt]

I've listened to

We'll have to agree to disagree on the superiority of treated down.

Experience #1: Had a sleeping bag that used treated-down and it was the worst damn bag I've ever owned. It would not wick away moisture. No matter the temperature outside, the bag would wet out from natural perspiration and I'd freeze. Didn't matter if it was in the 60s or the 30s.

Experience #2: My WM MegaLite bag uses untreated down. However, it's foot box took a direct hit from a monsoon that dumped several inches of rain over a couple of hours. During the storm the decibel range was in the low to mid-90s. This bag should have failed and been worthless if what the "experts" claimed was true. There was 1-2" of water pooled on top of the bag, the top half was damp, and there was another 1-2" pooled on top of the bottom half (not yet soaked). I poured the water out and hopped in. Somehow this "inferior" bag kept my feet warm and was completely dry in the morning.

Experience #3: More than once I've "baked" my soaked shirt and/or hoodie dry with a down puffy. Seen other friends and hunters do the same; this is with a variety of puffy manufacturers using various treated and untreated down. If what the "experts" claimed is true, then the untreated down puffies should be failing left and right and only the treated down should be able to wick away the sweat and keep the wearer warm.

the owners of western mountaineering speak to the reason they do not use treated down. Supposedly it is very new and untested at this point and there is no long term studies on it regarding life span, etc.

 

[Big Ern]

I have the SG….extremely warm for how light it is. Packs great, but is too fragile for me. I have tape all over the arms covering tears in the shell. I’m over it and will just wear it until it falls apart.

I would look at Feathered Friends or some other mountaineering brands if warmth and durability are a real concern.