Proposed pack goat Ban in CO!

[slick]

Mike, it doesn’t if they aren’t in sheep areas.

It does put them at risk if they are.

 

[Ryan Avery]

It is an easy target, and it’s also easily remedied. Don’t bring them into sheep country.

Mule deer and Rocky Mountain goats?? Not sure why that is even being brought up, last time I checked I wasn’t hauling MD into camp with me.

I’m glad you get them tested, I think the wool growers associations, pack goat breeders/users, etc. should be incentivized to produce disease free stock. Not everyone tests their goats. And I still feel that if it’s a known threat, then Natural Resource Agencies whether state or federal doing something to potentially protect the resource is a good thing- and their job. For the record, I’m obviously not for sheep grazing allotments in known bighorn country.

I’m sorry that it would prevent you bringing your stock into some places across the west, but I’m on board with the ban.

Its brought up because people think ONLY domestic goats and sheep carry Movi.

 

[ElkElkGoose]

I think this is the result of any special interest group, eventually they hop into the "extreme" area.

 

[Legend]

B.S.

 

[ElkElkGoose]

Human nature my man..Ive been involved in the mule deer foundation and RMEF extensively. Ive even testified in front of state legislative assemblies for these groups and was considered an "up and comer". I' m no longer involved in either. The problem with any special interest group is that there is not a line that they are striving for. Once they achieve goal A we must progress to goal B...and then C and then D etc. The problem is that these goals eventually start conflicting with the goals of other groups. Is it in the environment's best interest to have as many elk as possible? No, theres a reason why there are penned off vegatation areas in Rocky Mountain National Park.. The goals of RMEF will eventually impact MDF, DU, TU and vice versa.

I had a grand idea once of getting all these conservation groups together to support regulations as a group as their power would be immense. I was told that the last time this was actually attempted it ended it fists being thrown.

Unfortunately, all of the overall environmental groups are antihunter such as the Sierra Club. All of the hunting groups are pushing their specific species regardless of conflict with other environmental efforts.

 

[GrumpyHiker]

Wolves outta take care of pack goats and domestic sheep, eh?

 

[ragz]

Wolves outta take care of pack goats and domestic sheep, eh?

Yeah but just tell them not to get near the bighorns or we'll have to ban them.

 

[S.Clancy]

This is crap!! I do not hunt with pack goats and this still irritates me. Arizona game and fish tried to ban trail cameras based on the potential spread of CWD. Just another bullshit excuse to add more rules. If they really want to ban trail cameras because they do not consider them fair chase, just say it. Same goes with pack goat ban. Using the rare case of disease spread is laughable. I am guessing some tree hugger is in the pocket of someone and thinks it is cruel to use them to carry someone's gear. I can not wait until we have to step into a machine to kill every ounce of bacteria on us and our gear before we go step foot into the forrest.

I think they should ban trail cams just because, and I use them.

 

[ElkElkGoose]

I hope this wasnt a response to my post, Id lose a little faith in humanity if you were trying to tie what I was ssying to the wolf introduction argument.

 

[GrumpyHiker]

I hope this wasnt a response to my post, Id lose a little faith in humanity if you were trying to tie what I was ssying to the wolf introduction argument.

Nope, just stirring the pot...

 

[slick]

https://oar.princeton.edu/jspui/bitstream/88435/pr1q993/1/Pneumonia_bighorn_sheep_2017.pdf

.

Less extensive surveys of domestic goats reported 37.5–88% of flocks to be PCR positive on nasal swabs. Larger flocks were more likely to be positive for carriage (Heinse et al. 2016; Table S2, available online in Supporting Information). A host-specific pathogen commonly carried by domestic sheep and goats is consistent with the high mortality observed in captive bighorn sheep when commingled with domestic sheep but not when commingled with non-Caprinae livestock including cattle, horses, and llamas (Foreyt 1992, Foreyt and Lagerquist 1996, Besser et al. 2012a).

Strains detected in domestic sheep differ from those detected in domestic goats, suggesting host adaptation and coevolution within old world Caprinae(Maksimovi􏰄cetal.2017).Thisdivergencealso provides a means for inferring the host species of origin.

 

[ElkElkGoose]

Nope, just stirring the pot...

I can respect that

 

[Ryan Avery]

All livestock can be deadly to Wild sheep... How many beef cows and domestic sheep do we have living right next to wild sheep on BLM land... How many horses are going into the backcountry? Pack goats should be the least of their concerns.

Captive interspecies commingling studies evaluating transmission of Movi and other pathogens to bighorn sheep Species commingled (# animals) Bighorn sheep (died/total) % death # of studies Bacteria Domestic Sheep (39) 41/43 95% 7 Mannheimia, Bibersteinia trehalosi, Movi, Arcanobacterium, Corynebacterium Movi-free Domestic sheep (4) 1/4 25% 1 Mannheimia, Bibersteinia trehalosi (@day 90) Domestic Goat (13) 2/16 12.5% 4 Mannheimia Horse (3) 1/6 17% 1 Pasteurella (Mannheimia), Streptococcus Cattle (6) 1/9 11% 2 Mannheimia (Foreyt: 1982, 1989, 1990, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2009; Onderka1988; Besser2012&2016) Death in BHS occurred between 8 days and 3 months

 

[slick]

Don’t disagree. There are bigger issues at play, but to me it’s a step in the right direction.

 

[Midwest.Bushlore]

I admire that pack goat people are passionate, but I have a hard time understanding that people would be against protecting a resource as fickle as bighorns.

I think the 'ban first, research later- or never' idea is the big problem. I've never seen any evidence that pack goats are a danger and they offer none to support the ban. I've never packed with goats so I don't have a dog in the fight but it seems like an unnecessary restriction, some 'safety theater' designed to create the appearance of action by targeting a small group that will likely lack the means to fight back.

 

[RockinU]

The pack goats that I have seen stay right with their owners on the trail and at night in camp like pets, unlike grazing sheep herds.

So how then does this expose bighorn sheep to potential disease, particularly if the owners don't approach sheep or sheep areas?

As has already been pointed out in this thread, the most recent information we have is that M.ovi is showing up in species other than sheep and goat, so if a goat can infect a mule deer, who then travels among bighorn... There is potential.

I have no skin in the game, as I don't use goats, but I think that to act like they aren't a potential vector for disease transmission is disingenuous. While I think testing is wise for mitigating risks, I also know there are incubation periods, and unless you run a completely closed herd there are holes in testing. Lots of people claim closed herds, but then I see pics from fairs and competitions of people displaying their goats and what they can do...so there are a lot that don't run closed herds, and they are taking those goats to the mountain with potential for problems that might outweigh the guys who are doing it right.

I also think something must be done about domestic sheep in bighorn areas, it's just common sense, if we want to really recover bighorn, then the sheep have to go, but pointing to domestic sheep grazing and saying that because they are still there, people should be allowed to lead goats with lethal potential into bighorn habitat makes no sense. It's like saying, since I'm already bleeding, might as well cut me again.

More info and extensive protocol need to be researched, and perhaps this can all be remedied with a best practices policy, but a safe before sorry policy until then could be prudent.

 

[Ryan Avery]

As has already been pointed out in this thread, the most recent information we have is that M.ovi is showing up in species other than sheep and goat, so if a goat can infect a mule deer, who then travels among bighorn... There is potential.

I have no skin in the game, as I don't use goats, but I think that to act like they aren't a potential vector for disease transmission is disingenuous. While I think testing is wise for mitigating risks, I also know there are incubation periods, and unless you run a completely closed herd there are holes in testing. Lots of people claim closed herds, but then I see pics from fairs and competitions of people displaying their goats and what they can do...so there are a lot that don't run closed herds, and they are taking those goats to the mountain with potential for problems that might outweigh the guys who are doing it right.

I also think something must be done about domestic sheep in bighorn areas, it's just common sense, if we want to really recover bighorn, then the sheep have to go, but pointing to domestic sheep grazing and saying that because they are still there, people should be allowed to lead goats with lethal potential into bighorn habitat makes no sense. It's like saying, since I'm already bleeding, might as well cut me again.

More info and extensive protocol need to be researched, and perhaps this can all be remedied with a best practices policy, but a safe before sorry policy until then could be prudent.

Why ban the lowest threat, which I will repeat again, mine are zero threat because they are tested? Why not start with domestics sheep or cattle or horses....?? Easy, they have more people and money to fight it. Banning pack goats is a feel-good measure at best.

 

[RockinU]

Why ban the lowest threat, which I will repeat again, mine are zero threat because they are tested? Why not start with domestics sheep or cattle or horses....?? Easy, they have more people and money to fight it. Banning pack goats is a feel-good measure at best.

That sure might be true, but having been in the livestock world my whole life, I understand the limitations of testing, how people game testing protocols, and I also know that not everyone tests, and that the value of testing is diminished in a herd that is not closed.

If the goal is to limit all these potential disease vectors, it doesn't surprise me that agencies would go after the easiest ones first, get them behind them and move on to more difficult. If you don't believe that is the ultimate goal, and I can understand the skepticism, then I understand your frustration at being singled out.

I understand that I will likely never have the opportunity to hunt bighorn, and that one of the reasons for that is the diseases our livestock subject them to. I for one hope that both of my kids have the opportunity to hunt them if they so choose, and if that means that all stock industries in bighorn territory have to make adjustments, then that's what it is, and I say that as a stock raiser.

 

[Cana]

For us with goats, we do bear a burden to have them tested for M Ovi. Easily done with a nasal swab sent to WSU. I reccomend keeping copy of the negative test results with you when out and about as an opportunity to educate and advocate.

(https://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/animal...gnostics-in-domestic-and-wild-sheep-and-goats)

 

[Clifford]

Does anyone know how this ended up turning out? Gunnison is an area I might hunt and I’ve been looking into pack goats as an option.