Montana Region 1 Proposed District Closures

[slick]

Working on typing something up and was looking at harvest data over the last decade or so this is what I found..
131- 20 goats (9N 11B)
132- 11 goats (3N 8B)
134- 10 goats (6N 4B)
141- 15 goats (3N 12B)
151- 7 goats (1N 6B)

Totals: 63 (22N 41B)
Thats from 2007-2016

Over a third of the animals shot have been nannies. Don't understand why they can't create a billy only tag.

 

[slick]

Here's a link if anyone was interested

http://fwp.mt.gov/doingBusiness/ins...tings/agenda.html?coversheet&topicId=43562495

 

[mt100gr.]

There was also a proposal this year to make region 1 Billy only hunting. I think it is a good.thing too.

I spent some time on the phone this morning with the region 1 biologist to try an better understand the approach given the trouble that the goats are in. As of now, it's a matter of information gathering and compilation. There's no call for citizen scientists at this point and funding, as I suspected, will be the determining factor. There is so little quality data on goats that everyone has pretty much just been winging it for 25 years when it comes to management.

The more I learn about goats, the more I realize I don't know chit. If anyone has a spare helicopter sitting around, I know a good way to put some hours on it.

 

[Flatgo]

The really sad part is a total of 63 goats were killed in ten years over a very vast amount of country. Highly doubt hunting pressure is the major cause for population decline. Other factors are probably at play such as predators and habit degradation. The idea of billy only tag is great, but the its a lot harder than most people know to tell the difference between a billy and a nanny. especially when you only get to hunt goats once or twice in your life if you're lucky. I would say most of those nannies shot were by people who thought they were shooting billies.

Anyways would be great to get boots on the ground and glass on the mountains. I hope FWP will willing except volunteers to survey the goat populations in those districts.

 

[mt100gr.]

The numbers say that when native goat populations here reach a low threshold, they will continue to decline regardless of hunting pressure. As additive mortality, hunting will expedite that decline. There are also greater landscape issues that hunting district "lines" overlook. Just because we see them as boundaries means nothing to the overall population dynamics of an area and genetic connectivity may span multiple HDs. It all comes back to "no one really knows and goats are hard to study"

There is basically a magic number for population size that can support hunting. Depending on how that population is defined, it may be the case that northwest MT doesn't have enough goats to hunt at all. In canada, around 1 percent harvest rates were sustainable. MT has been around 4 percent for some time now. ....that's from memory but I think the numbers are correct.

 

[slick]

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.663.6815&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Here's a paper regarding the Alberta goat populations that fall right in line with with mt100gr is saying.
They mentioned classified ground counts were very accurate. I have personally done aerial surveys of critters and it works for some species better than others, sometimes it doesn't beat willing feet and eyes.

Im still in favor of a weekend, or weekends this summer to help bio's better understand whats going on up there as far as obtaining accurate counts.

 

[mt100gr.]

Interesting. The biologist I spoke with, who previously worked with goats all over AK said aerial spotting from a helicopter is hands down the best way to count. Better than fixed wing and much better than ground counting. Everyone has their ideas I suppose and I know that biologists are hesitant to enlist the help of lowly ground pounders.

 

[MTguy0341]

The new regs are posted. With some changes. Here's from the regs - NEW FOR 2018 - Regions 1, 2, and 4:
In all hunting districts in Regions 1,
2 and 4 it is unlawful to take a female
mountain goat accompanying a kid (an
animal with horns less than 4 inches)
or a female mountain goat in a group
that contains one or more kids.

 

[mike stoick]

Just stumbled across this thread and I did the same thing you guys did. Back in January when I noticed those units were going to be closed I was alarmed also. I contacted the biologist and she told me the same thing she told you. I joined the RMGA and emailed Pete about the closures and asked if we can get involved up here. He told me to think of a plan to get something going for this summer as in a survey. I just don’t know exactly what to do and the biologist said that any information we bring here would not be used. Any ideas from you guys would help and I have a couple guys also willing to get out and do something. I am in Kalispell.

 

[mt100gr.]

We're all in the same boat, here. We want to help and feel that getting baseline numbers would be the obvious starting point. Unfortunately, at this time, our FWP biologist will only accept her own data gathered from helicopter observation.

RMGA, MT WSF, National WSF, and many sportsmen and nature lovers are looking for some answers here.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

We're all in the same boat, here. We want to help and feel that getting baseline numbers would be the obvious starting point. Unfortunately, at this time, our FWP biologist will only accept her own data gathered from helicopter observation.

RMGA, MT WSF, National WSF, and many sportsmen and nature lovers are looking for some answers here.

I’m surprised to hear that - the biologist in Bozeman was all about getting RMGA survey data two years ago when I did it, and the biologist flew in a helo to confirm the following weekend.


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[Flatgo]

Not surprised the region 1 biologists think that the southfork of flathead is at objective for elk even though i would say there is an 1/8th the amount there were 10 years ago. I don't think FWP has clue whats going on with animals in region period. however, i'd be more than happy to hike through that country and look for goats. wish FWP was more open to using the data though.

 

[slick]

I’ve talked to her a bit and she’s sticking to her guns. She wants the most accurate data collection methods possible and all an RMGA survey would do is provide anecdotal evidence. If she switches her methods up then how does she maintain consistency in her data trends. -even if they are few and far between. I get the argument for the surveys based on that. But I think there are things happening behind the scenes.

While I was on board for a survey initially and found it more disappointing in being shut down, this is showing that there is great interest in goats and many contingency groups are aligned with the conservation of the native herds in western MT.

A time will come when RMGA is asked for help, but it’s not now. These closures are set in stone for the next two years. So I’m keeping emotions aside (although initially was frustrated) I’m going to trust the professional to let her do her job, and contacting her and having her have to say the same thing to how many sportsman is only preventing her from completing other tasks.


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[DaveC]

Thanks for the number Slick. Definitely a sad thing to see "my" unit closed. I'd certainly be interested in doing something to work towards more and better data.

 

[slick]

As would I. I don’t think interest should wane, and the amount of people interested in it is great. I would just ask all interested folks to have some patience while she works towards our common goal of figuring out what’s going on with these herds and the best direction for a rebound. Stay into it and be on the lookout for hair and fecal sampling efforts in the future (no set date or anything- maybe not even this summer)


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