Proof Research or Christensen Arms???

[tipsntails7]

I stand corrected

 

[Nogunjoe]

I just like my guns with proof barrels. Trying to share my experience since someone started the topic. No relationship with Proof other than as a customer....

Here is a link to an article that talks about rapid fire, no poi shit, and barrel being cool to touch. Pretty much same as my experience.

www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/proof-research-carbon-fiber/

 

[F16pointy]

Interesting thread, but when looking at all the options I think I could stick with my little bit heavier steel barrel and save weight in other gear. Just seems most people get wrapped up with heat in a barrel. If your in combat and throwing thousands of rounds I get it. But how many rounds are you flinging at that animal? Personally I bring my hunting rifle and something to shoot on the side when I hit the range. Then I try to shoot cold barrel the whole time like you do in the field. I once considered getting a custom mountain rifle and when I saw the price I decided to then compare them to factory rifles. I bought a Kimber 84M in .308. I put a Burris Fullfield II 3-9 X 40 on it and with 4 rounds weighs in at 6 lbs. It cost me $1200 totally outfitted. I have shot it out to 500 yards with good accuracy and I took a sheep at 436 yards with it. Just my two cents but what are you truly saving anything by spending $5000 on a rifle? Or over $1k for a new barrel?

 

[Ryan Avery]

I don't know dick about long range shooting but I know no carbon epoxy compound will compare to steel in thermal conductivity.

What? That's a generalized statement. There are thousands of different carbon fibers out there. The higher end carbon even when mixed with resin still puts a big spanking on steel.

 

[Brendan]

My counterargument is that if the heat were dissipated more quickly, the barrel would not feel as hot to the touch because the barrel would never get as hot as one dissipating more slowly.

Or the other way around - if it was acting as an insulator the barrel would retain heat, and still not get hot on the outside.

What? That's a generalized statement. There are thousands of different carbon fibers out there. The higher end carbon even when mixed with resin still puts a big spanking on steel.

Ryan is right. The answer is - it depends. Standard run of the mill carbon fiber and epoxy is probably worse than steel, but carbon composites that pay attention to orientation of the fibers, and sometimes "dope" with other materials can be a better conductor than copper or aluminum.

The only true way to know for sure is to run a controlled test measuring barrel temp internally and seeing how quickly it drops off over time... External temperature doesn't tell you much...

 

[tipsntails7]

What? That's a generalized statement. There are thousands of different carbon fibers out there. The higher end carbon even when mixed with resin still puts a big spanking on steel.

It's a generalized statement that's true...
Graphene and carbon nanotubes are a different story, but I assume that's not what's going on here.

Your right I'd does very with who manufacturers it, but can the gain in thermo conductivity be attributed to the actual material or the way they choose to weave it?

I would think that the real gain with carbon fibre is the lack of expansion at higher temperatures not the dissipation of heat.

I would think it would be a pretty simple test to find out if the barrel is really doing what they say or if it's actual being insulated.

Ryan If you have any reading I could do I would be interested in the actual science of it and in what applications CF is better

 

[Ryan Avery]

Like I stated before I have been a carbon barrel fan since 2000. I have owned Christensen Arms, Proof and Hells Canyon carbon barreled rifles. I am not a Composite Engineer but I do know a few and have picked their brains. I also did a little research of my own because there seems to be a bit of truth bending out on the net about this topic. I have also asked CA specific questions about the carbon they use.

Alloy 1020(similar to barrel steel)has a Thermal Connectivity of 30
Polyester(resin) has a Thermal Connectivity of basically 0
Carbon, Longitudinal direction(carbon CA uses on their barrels) has a Thermal Connectivity between 58-300

Christensen Arms uses a grade of carbon that comes in at 250 on the Btu/ft-h-F scale. So when mixed with resin the Thermal Connectivity drops to half or 125 on the scale. Still far better than the Alloy 1020 at 30

I asked CA if they would do a temperature test with their carbon barrel against their steel barrel on video. I am hoping they use their AR's for the test. Dump 30 rounds and measure But I don't know if that will happen.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Like I stated before I have been a carbon barrel fan since 2000. I have owned Christensen Arms, Proof and Hells Canyon carbon barreled rifles. I am not a Composite Engineer but I do know a few and have picked their brains. I also did a little research of my own because there seems to be a bit of truth bending out on the net about this topic. I have also asked CA specific questions about the carbon they use.

Alloy 1020(similar to barrel steel)has a Thermal Connectivity of 30
Polyester(resin) has a Thermal Connectivity of basically 0
Carbon, Longitudinal direction(carbon CA uses on their barrels) has a Thermal Connectivity between 58-300

Christensen Arms uses a grade of carbon that comes in at 250 on the Btu/ft-h-F scale. So when mixed with resin the Thermal Connectivity drops to half or 125 on the scale. Still far better than the Alloy 1020 at 30

I asked CA if they would do a temperature test with their carbon barrel against their steel barrel on video. I am hoping they use their AR's for the test. Dump 30 rounds and measure But I don't know if that will happen.

Man, that just gave me a headache.

Randy

 

[KMD]

Seems like we're getting away from what really matters in a barrel, and arguing the finer points of heat dissipation?

Shot a couple rifles over the weekend, and re-affirmed (yet again) that my cold bore, hot bore shift is non-existent in my Broughton & Bartleins. That said, heat dissipation/insulation/conductivity don't mean diddly squat to me. And I dang sure can't figure out why those factors would mean diddly-squat on a hunting rifle that's going to be shot ONCE. Or, thrice...(if you can't shoot straight the first time)

So...
I'd still like to know how much weight I'm going to save for carbon wrap tube, for shelling out double the ducket$ of a premium, #4 fluted,stainless barrel?

I represent one of the end user consumers that needs educated & enlightened. What am I getting for paying 2X the price over what I've already proven for myself?

 

[tipsntails7]

Like I stated before I have been a carbon barrel fan since 2000. I have owned Christensen Arms, Proof and Hells Canyon carbon barreled rifles. I am not a Composite Engineer but I do know a few and have picked their brains. I also did a little research of my own because there seems to be a bit of truth bending out on the net about this topic. I have also asked CA specific questions about the carbon they use.

Alloy 1020(similar to barrel steel)has a Thermal Connectivity of 30
Polyester(resin) has a Thermal Connectivity of basically 0
Carbon, Longitudinal direction(carbon CA uses on their barrels) has a Thermal Connectivity between 58-300

Christensen Arms uses a grade of carbon that comes in at 250 on the Btu/ft-h-F scale. So when mixed with resin the Thermal Connectivity drops to half or 125 on the scale. Still far better than the Alloy 1020 at 30

I asked CA if they would do a temperature test with their carbon barrel against their steel barrel on video. I am hoping they use their AR's for the test. Dump 30 rounds and measure But I don't know if that will happen.

Ryan I stand corrected, and did some reading on pitch specific carbon, I had not realized Pitch carbon was that superior to PAN or CFRP. I retract my statement.

Although it makes me wonder if it is really that superior why has no one done an actual test? I would imagine that would do nothing but boost business.

 

[Nogunjoe]

Although it makes me wonder if it is really that superior why has no one done an actual test? I would imagine that would do nothing but boost business.

Suspect it has to do with unscrupulous law firms ready to use anything they say against them to extract money...

Would like to see the test results too. But my experience leaves me with no doubt Proof barrels cool more quickly than all steel.
My 5x faster than steel statement was repeating what I was told. I can't vouch for that figure otherwise. So, I'll back off it to the position that they cool faster than all steel.

 

[Ryan Avery]

KMD, your still talking about Proof. You can get a CA barrel for 600.00. My Old CA barrel weights 44oz. So I am guessing you save 5-8 oz over a #4 taper with deep flutes. You also get a stiffer barrel with carbon. I agree, the heat transfer is a non issue with a bolt gun. Chasing ounces is never cheap. That's whats great about having options.

 

[SouthernCamo]

I just spent the last two days in a long range shooting class where I shot my 7mm rem mag CA Summit Ti-TH and I shot multiple Proof guns. While my CA demonstrated excellent cold bore performance the Proof guns were vastly superior to my setup it made me sick. The class involved a progressive range setup where we confirmed our ballistics then shot a course from 350 to 1060 yards, in separate scenarios my CA would start out strong but by my third or fourth shot with a minute or two of rest between I ran into problems, my POI would track up and right or off grid. I set the gun aside took a proof gun and could literally could shoot from 500, 650, 750, 825, and 1060 yards in progressive order with no more than 60 seconds rest between shots and the POI NEVER moved. After 15 min I picked my CA up and center massed 825 yards first shot, by the second shot after not fully cooling it moved again.

Bottom line I am hunter not a tactical guy so cold bore performance is my major concern and the CA is an outstanding gun, light weight, and will make me a great hunting gun but I can say that it doesn't hold a candle to a proof setup when it comes to the range and being able to shoot multiple rounds without being sidelined by heat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Steakngravy]

I can't say which barrel is better because I've never owned a ca but I will say that proof customer service is exactly what I would hope to find In a high end barrel company those guys really take care of there customers and to me that means a lot , the parts to build a gun like this is quite expensive , and after a few conversations on the phone I can say there are not a lot of companies Selling any outdoor products that I have personally bought from that were more helpful..good bunch of guys

 

[Ryan Avery]

I just spent the last two days in a long range shooting class where I shot my 7mm rem mag CA Summit Ti-TH and I shot multiple Proof guns. While my CA demonstrated excellent cold bore performance the Proof guns were vastly superior to my setup it made me sick. The class involved a progressive range setup where we confirmed our ballistics then shot a course from 350 to 1060 yards, in separate scenarios my CA would start out strong but by my third or fourth shot with a minute or two of rest between I ran into problems, my POI would track up and right or off grid. I set the gun aside took a proof gun and could literally could shoot from 500, 650, 750, 825, and 1060 yards in progressive order with no more than 60 seconds rest between shots and the POI NEVER moved. After 15 min I picked my CA up and center massed 825 yards first shot, by the second shot after not fully cooling it moved again.

Bottom line I am hunter not a tactical guy so cold bore performance is my major concern and the CA is an outstanding gun, light weight, and will make me a great hunting gun but I can say that it doesn't hold a candle to a proof setup when it comes to the range and being able to shoot multiple rounds without being sidelined by heat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Something doesn't sound right! I would seriously talk to them and send it back.

 

[SouthernCamo]

Something doesn't right! I would seriously talk to them and send it back.

The barrell is lighter than a steel only rig and certainly cools faster than a steel only rig if given say 5 min to cool it just demonstrated the drifting quality of steel in about the same number of successive shots as steel when it was required to shoot quickly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Frog55]

It's a generalized statement that's true...
Graphene and carbon nanotubes are a different story, but I assume that's not what's going on here.

Your right I'd does very with who manufacturers it, but can the gain in thermo conductivity be attributed to the actual material or the way they choose to weave it?

I would think that the real gain with carbon fibre is the lack of expansion at higher temperatures not the dissipation of heat.

I would think it would be a pretty simple test to find out if the barrel is really doing what they say or if it's actual being insulated.

Ryan If you have any reading I could do I would be interested in the actual science of it and in what applications CF is better

Yup, graphene and nanotubes as these kinda fall to different category. However they can be used to enhance a material to much durable form. that would be something to try out. You can't really ever have enough of extra durability.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

Holy hell, its been 2 years let it die

Lol