Proof Research or Christensen Arms???

[luke moffat]

Got a link to military report? Seems like it would be a good read. If not I'd be a little cautious as to believing something from any company that says "our stuff is better" based off a report no one actually can see. Just like if Kifaru were to say "Our packs carry loads better than anything out there" I would certainly be taking that with a grain of salt as well. Of course any company is gonna say their stuff is the best.....

 

[KMD]

A premium barrel blank is $300-350
Fluting from a shop like Kampfeld is $130
So, a deep fluted #4-5 contour barrel would run in the ~$450 range, where a Proof carbon wrap barrel is ~$900.

Assuming barrel life and accuracy potential are up to par with a carbon wrap tube, the only way for a shooter like me to justify spending double the price for a carbon wrapped barrel is to consider weight savings. But alas, there no weights listed for carbon wrapped barrel blanks on PR's website? If that is a major selling point of carbon wrapped barrels, why not have that information readily available?

 

[Travis Bertrand]

I wouldn't take proofs word for it. Call Christensen, they are helpful guys and willing to answer any questions you may have. They are "straight shooters" pun intended.

 

[Nogunjoe]

Proof has always been very willing to answer questions in great detail with me. I have many of their barrels. So I can vouch for their being much better at heat dissipation, weight reduction and reducing poi shift from heat than steel barrels. All steel barrels get hot, some shift poi more than others. I trust the stats they quoted me, but don't have further documentation.
I have always heard prior to Proof, that Carbon Barrels insulate rather than dissipate heat. So, they get hot quickly and had the associated problems. Weight reduction was the appeal. I have nothing against CA. I have friends who own them and say they are incredibly accurate. For hunting, rapid fire is not usually an issue. So, likely very good barrels for hunting. I just don't have any of them. So, I am just repeating what I have been told on CA barrels.

As for the cost and benefits. Proof barrel blanks are expensive at 900+. If you mountain hunt, reducing weight and maintaining extreme accuracy for long range is a worthwhile goal. I have a 6.5x284 that weighs 9.2#(7.26# net) with a nightforce NXS 5.5x22 scope(1.94#) that shoots under .25moa very reliably. Have a 7LRM that weighs just under 11#(8.44 net) with a Nightforce Beast scope(2.56#) that is .3moa (would be 10# with a more reasonable scope). My experience is that lighter guns are hard to keep accurate. But it is clearly achievable with these. I attribute this to Proof. So, I pay their price.
The heat dissipation is more relevant on the bench working up loads. Would be good for competition as well. The heat dissipation could extend barrel life but I don't have feedback on that.

 

[Nogunjoe]

http://proofresearch.com/the-products/barrels/

Here is a link to Proof's barrel page. Would be nice if barrel specs included weight. They do say up to 64% weight reduction, but of course that varies materially with barrel specs. Just read this page. It is similar to my representations. Think I'll go read CA's. page.

 

[Nogunjoe]

Just looked at CA website. Didn't see much detail. Post me a link if there is detail available from CA.

 

[GKPrice]

I hear "heat dissipation" and "rigidity" mentioned in the same sentence all too often - One is not the other - Carbon fiber wrapped pencil thin barrels do exhibit a greater degree of rigidity over a comparable steel barrel of the same WEIGHT - THIS is where carbon wrapped barrels shine - a "bull" barrel that weighs the same as a #2 contour ? exceptional ! BUT carbon fiber DOES NOT dissipate heat "better" than just plain old steel ! Does NOT happen .... you want to "dissipate heat" ?? tension wrap in aluminum or leave the steel alone and let nature work ... stiffness vs. overall weight ? ABSOLUTELY !! just don't expect longer barrel life - For a long range HUNTING rifle that I had to carry ? Carbon Fiber wrapped barrel would be a definite .......All day prairie dog rifle ? I'd take 3 standard bull barrel guns to rotate for a day long shoot

 

[Nogunjoe]

BUT carbon fiber DOES NOT dissipate heat "better" than just plain old steel ! Does NOT happen ./QUOTE]

If you tried one of Proofs barrels, Think you would change your opinion about their carbon compound vs steel for heat dissipation.

 

[KMD]

Nogunjoe,
I've read opinions from some very knowledgeable gunsmiths who's experience with carbon wrapped barrels dissapating heat is polar opposite to yours. Who & what are we to believe on this crazy interweb?

My 6.5SAUM has a 24" Bartlein #4 contour, with deep fluting. In a standard fill Micky GameScout w/Surgeon DBM & magazine, the rifle is under 8 lbs. (could have gone ADL and Edge fill on stock to shave a pound off, but didn't care to). Add in 25 oz. of scope + sling, and its still under 10 lbs. I pillar bedded the stock myself with MarineTex and left the entire barrel free floating. That sucker has ZERO POI shift due to heat. If it did, I wouldn't blame the barrel, I'd blame it on a lowsy bedding job, then hog it out with a Dremel and bed it again.
Were you implying that premium SS barrels were somehow not stress relieved enough to prevent POI shift during long strings of fire? If so, do you have any evidence or testing to support that implication?

Still not seeing what $900 is getting me? I could buy two more Bartlein #4s and have Carl Feldkamp flute them for that same $900.

Is the carbon barrel twice as accurate, for twice the price?

Is the carbon wrap tube half the weight, for twice the price? What is spending double getting me?
Still haven't seen any hard data for barrel blank weights? Is that because weight savings over a fluted, light contour barrel is negligible, at best? How many ounces of savings over a fluted SS barrel is worth an extra $450???

Does the carbon wrap barrel dissipate heat twice as fast, for twice the price? Would like to see independent testing to put this "heat dissipating" marketing angle to rest, once & for all. As if that really matters in a big game hunting rifle anyway, LOL? Big game shooting is a "one & done" endeavor, this ain't p-dog poppin'...

 

[Nogunjoe]

KMD:
My understanding is that historically Carbon wrapped barrels insulated rather than dissipated heat relative to steel. So, the gunsmiths were right. But, Proof's Carbon compound is different and dissipates heat faster. I can vouch for that as I have fired many thousands of rounds through them and steel barrels as well.
Yep, as I said, the heat related poi shift of steel barrels varies. I just had some that frustrated me. So, I did research, tried Proof barrels, and think it solved my problem.
It does seem to me that POI shift from heat is a barrel issue more than bedding.
Cost and benefits are not usually proportional but often cost is exponential relative to marginal improvements. So, twice the accuracy for twice the cost is not what I am after. The reduced weight, 25-64% based on barrel length and contour, while maintaining match accuracy is my thing. Heat dissipation is real nice when working up loads as I can shoot more quickly and have less heat mirage from barrel.
I was told the heat dissipation is 5x as fast. Not sure that really translates to overall barrel. More likely the carbon at 5x serves as a wick to accelerate cooling of steel. I can vouch for the barrel cooling more quickly and not getting as hot.
Bartlein and many other steel match barrels are excellent. Think everyone should have several. I just like the Proof barrels for light weight, heat dissipation without sacrificing accuracy. Perhaps gaining on the poi shift relative to steel.
We can have them all! Spend our money as we like!

 

[Justin Crossley]

Are you basing your claim of faster cooling on the outside of the barrel feeling cooler? I would argue that would prove the carbon is actually insulating the barrel.

Sounds like the Proof barrels have treated you very well. And I'm not saying they aren't top notch barrels. I just always question what I read on the internet and on company websites.

 

[Nogunjoe]

Tough crowd of skeptics on Rokslide! Yes, i observe the outside. Also Proof's marketing and verbal communication. The barrels would have more poi shift than regular steel barrels if the carbon was insulating the turned down steel barrel inside the carbon compound. I can verify the 4 Proof Barrels I have tested have less POI shift than steel barrels I have tested.

In our litigious environment, Proof is risking everything they have built if their claims are false.

I too wish all the military testing data and their data was online. But, I expect it is not for proprietary or contractual confidentiality reasons.

Healthy skepticism, great! Be open minded enough to look into it further. Call Proof 406-756-9290. My call to them resulted in the best barrels i have ever owned. Note: I don't work for Proof or anyone for that matter. I'm just sharing my experience with their barrels.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Seems a simple experiment could be run to determine barrel heat dissipation in a carbon wrapped vs steel fluted barrel. Take two rifles with same/similar barrel contours in the same caliber, run equal number of rounds thru each and stick 4 old fashioned mercury thermometers in the rifles and measure/record the heat loss as it returns to ambient over time.
Anyone want to give it a go? Maybe a string of 5 rounds?

 

[Nogunjoe]

Sure. Realize Proof Carbon wrapped is different from other Carbon Bbl manufacturers. So, use Proof and a steel. Add another manufacturers carbon barrel too.
I predict the Proof barrel will be the coolest, then steel, then the other. Would like to see it.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I do not have or know anyone local who shoots a carbon wrapped barrel. It would be difficult for me to put together the test. Maybe Ryan or you could find a buddy with a fluted heavy barrel rifle in the same caliber as one of your carbon wrapped rigs in the same caliber. Buy a few old fashioned thermometers and it would likely be a fun and informative test. I think that a lot of people would enjoy seeing the results.

 

[Nogunjoe]

I can come close. Can try same powder charge and bullet, but barrel profile will vary. Worth a shot, but validity will be questionable. Will get back to you. May take a week or so.

 

[GKPrice]

I have a question after reading the comments - "IF" a carbon wrapped barrel is, in fact radiating the heat from the inner steel barrel liner more efficiently yet the outside of the carbon tube does not feel warm then WHERE is the heat going ? out the muzzle ? back through the action ? our hands, to one degree or another, are a very good "general" receptor for heat so even though actual degrees would not be recorded out of 4 or 5 separate hands/fingers there certainly should be grounds for an accurate consensus - "HEAT" will remain "HEAT" until it has had a chance to mix with COOLER atmospheric conditions to balance to the ambient temperature, it has to be tactile somewhere along the line - IMPO this "more rapid heat dissipation " is a hoax - I like the idea of a thermometer put into each barrel and record the rate of cooling is a great plan

 

[GKPrice]

Hey - I hope you guys aren't getting me wrong here - I totally agree with the "stiffness" part on carbon fiber matrix wrapped barrels, it works and the barrels look cool and are lighter weight - I'm just going against the grain on the heat dissipation part, been there and done that and it didn't work with CA barrels and I'm not buyin' that the directional web of the carbon fiber makes all the difference (or whatever) - I have seen and understand how aluminum works and if carbon fiber worked the same (or better) you'd be able to feel the heat leaving just like you can on aluminum - carbon fiber ain't "magic", it's great technology for rigidity and strength vs. weight - Aside from the CA varmint rifles I "ate it" on, does anyone remember the Browning Abolts in 22-250 and 300 Win Mag that had CA barrels ? I had 2 of each, the 300 Win Mags were nice shooters and pretty lightweight for the day but the 22-250's shot out so fast I was fuming and arguing with Browning so adamantly that they took one back for inspection and when I got the rifle back it had a stainless sporter barrel on it ! no apologies of any kind, I still have the other and it shoots 40 grain Vmax's at 3950 (the same as my 223 AI with 12 grains less of 2200 and a commensurately less amount of recoil) but what do ya do with it ? anything heavier than 40's goes to patterns rather than groups

 

[Nogunjoe]

GKPrice and Justin: Understand and respect your thoughts. My counterargument is that if the heat were dissipated more quickly, the barrel would not feel as hot to the touch because the barrel would never get as hot as one dissipating more slowly. That being my theory, we need test results to see who is closer to reality.
To address this, I contacted Proof Research and asked them for Test Data on this point. Will share it if they provide it to me.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

The way your talking joe, you should be able to walk in the back door and get that data. If you don't work for proof they sure have an active volunteer program.