Posting unit #'s

[Mish-pop]

That may be true, but there's some important differences that don't get discussed. Older relatives of mine that hunted in the 60s-80s mostly went after small game around family farms. A lot of eastern areas didn't have the same big game opportunities we have now, sure, but I think there's been a large shift from kicking up rabbits around your neighbor's farm edges towards "big game or nothing". How many posts are there on here from brand new hunters going straight to rifle mule deer or archery elk? So comparing the same total number of hunters from decades ago isn't exactly an equal comparison on the landscape.

Land has changed too. That same volume of hunters used to be more spread out across lots of smaller parcels, family farms, and woodlots. How many of those places have been paved over for subdivisions? Or "farmed by inches", to the point there's no edge habitat for quail and pheasants anymore?

IMO, the number of hunters may be the same, but they're packed into less area and focused more on big game seasons than in the past.

I fully agree with this point. I have accrss to hunt waterfowl and practice with my bow on 40 acres right on the edge of city limits where I live, that is five minutes from my house. I met the guy this past year who archery hunts on that property (I don't hunt there as I just practice there and hunt several hours away). We got to talking and he stated that he used to hunt on a farm where my house now sits in a residential area built 25 years ago. He talked about how much has changed and how he has had to keep moving further from his place to keep hunting. Soon the place I hunt and practice will be developed as well and I will need to change my ways.

 

[IrkedCitizen]

I can't stand seeing guys post unit #s, or STATE NAMES IN ALL CAPS. I will admit I am not up to date with rokslide new rules regarding posting unit #s, just find it hilariously hypocritical that I finish reading this thread only to go to new posts to read about Colorado unit # x1 and even has a photo of a great bull that most elk hunters new or experienced would love to harvest. I personally don't hunt and tell, so I could care less to understand the rules just find it ironic that some unit#s can stay up while others can't even be posted.

This could be directed at me or @cnelk as we both posted pictures in that thread. My bull is not huge by any stretch but he is respectable. Some on the internet would say my bull is a 350" and people would believe it. In reality he is 295-305". Why the ballpark? I didn't care to measure him. He is at my taxidermist regardless. I have seen bigger bulls in OTC units let alone this "trophy unit". People in that thread were saying the quality has dropped off. Which could be the case as I only saw three bulls bigger than mine and sixty that were smaller. I don't regret my bull as I had a great time on that hunt and memories to last. He is going to look fantastic hanging on my living room wall where I can look at him everyday and reflect on the hunt.

For my bull I used 13pp in 2022 as a Resident to draw my tag for regular rifle season. I was above the preference point requirement and had been for a few years. I simply did not have the necessary time off at work to go hunt it sooner.

The 2022 draw recap says Res 10pp/73% chance and NR 23pp/44% chance. 180 tags total, 125 2nd/35 3rd/21 4th. There were 940 RES and 305 NR 1st choice applications.

This year in 2023 they separated the unit in to 3 different season recaps versus 1 combined.
2023 draw recap
- 2nd was Res 10pp/65%, NR 24pp/85%
9 day season, 120 tags, 513 Res/134 NR 1st choice
- 3rd was Res 10pp/62%, NR 24pp/75%
7 day season, 35 tags, 218 Res/118 NR 1st choice
- 4th was Res 9pp/63%, NR 24pp/25%
5 day season, 25 tags, 97 Res/48 NR 1st choice
Total 1st choice applications: 828 Res/300 NR

According to the recap there was a reduction of 112 Res and 5 NR 1st choice applications from 2022 to 2023. So if anything my pics and story had a positive impact.

Had I not used my points last year I would have drawn this year but I would have used 14pp instead of 13pp. My unit choice would not have changed but my bull would have likely survived and been bigger! But I drew and killed him so thats a moot point.
Guess what?! My Sister drew this year with 12pp. So I am going back and we will have a great time trying to get her a respectable bull and making more memories at the same time!

 

[IrkedCitizen]

The biggest and newest issue that is causing strife in Colorado is that the CPW stopped collecting license fees up front. This has impacted the 1-3pp units that could be drawn regularly. I believe they should go back to collecting license fees up front.

This is where the NR who had been a regular player (pre 2018) in Colorado got hosed. For NR you had to fork out substantial money to accrue preference points in Colorado. Some years I'm sure you couldn't afford to apply for all species so you had to pick and choose which tag/point was more important. Some years you might not have been able to afford anything at the time of application thus limiting you to leftover/OTC if able.

In 2018 is when they stopped collecting fees up front. 2018 still had the $40 preference point fee though.

Then enter 2019, if you could afford the qualifying license and $10 habitat stamp you could buy points for $10 each (deer/elk/bear/pronghorn). This was where the CPW really dropped the ball.

$100 qualifier + $10 hab stamp + $10 elk + $10 deer + $10 prong + $10 bear = $150

Much more appealing than
$10 hab stamp + $760 elk + $456 deer + $456 prong + $112 bear = $1794 fronted waiting for refund

This is what the NR should be complaining to the CPW about.

 

[cnelk]

This could be directed at me or @cnelk as we both posted pictures in that thread.

I saw that also so I deleted my pic so nobody would whine some more.

But I seriously doubt that a hunt I did 11 years ago would impact the unit now.

Unit 61 has definitely changed since I was there. Those that have that tag this year will find that out.

 

[Ten Bears]

With all of these new hunters, money, and votes pumped into various non profits, influencer pockets, etc that was promoted as a need for hunting to survive what has it actually accomplished ?

Have we gained hunting rights ?
Are there more animals on the ground ?
Are we even in control of our state game agencies ?
Have they tried to codify hunting rights in every state ? or on the federal level especially when we had a right leaning Congress ?
Is hunting on Federal Lands a guarantee in the future ?
I could go on….

Anyone being honest knows the answers to all of those questions.

Bottom line. It’s all bullshit.
They are here to make money and hunt while doing so, period.
And that doesn’t bother me. I am not mad at people making money or hunting.

What bothers me is pissing on my head and telling me it’s rain we needed.

Limiting unit numbers or having some sort of decorum when it comes to posting hard earned knowledge isn’t that much to ask. I wish the social media types would use the same approach, it might balance things out a bit.

 

[ndbuck09]

Agreed! Agreed! Ten Bears!

 

[philson208]

@IrkedCitizen thanks for the reply. I was not trying to blast you or whine about @cnelk posting an eleven year old hunt photo at all.. congratulations to both of you on beautiful bulls!! I was simply pointing out the irony in some threads being allowed to exist while others are banned. the specific thread you posted in was at the top of new posts as I finished reading this thread and so I referenced it randomly, definitely not trying to pick on you or cnelk. If I wanted to call you out or whine about what a random stranger posts I would @ both of you to begin with. I have better things to do than argue with strangers about something that is out of my control anyway. Have a blessed day and I hope both of you keep killing big bulls and sharing your hunts however you see fit.

 

[BDRam16]

This is exactly the rub-- how can we find out which outfitters offer packout services without a unit number?

People beating the drum for ** are not helpful to those hoping to draw it in the near future. These same members are the very people who should know better

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Can you delete all these not allowed FNG unit posts as opposed to just locking them? If the post is locked because it isn’t allowed, then why is it allowed to remain out there in google land with 3-5+ responses before the mods caught it? Seems like a possible solution.

 

[LuvsFixedBlades]

That may be true, but there's some important differences that don't get discussed. Older relatives of mine that hunted in the 60s-80s mostly went after small game around family farms. A lot of eastern areas didn't have the same big game opportunities we have now, sure, but I think there's been a large shift from kicking up rabbits around your neighbor's farm edges towards "big game or nothing". How many posts are there on here from brand new hunters going straight to rifle mule deer or archery elk? So comparing the same total number of hunters from decades ago isn't exactly an equal comparison on the landscape.

Land has changed too. That same volume of hunters used to be more spread out across lots of smaller parcels, family farms, and woodlots. How many of those places have been paved over for subdivisions? Or "farmed by inches", to the point there's no edge habitat for quail and pheasants anymore?

IMO, the number of hunters may be the same, but they're packed into less area and focused more on big game seasons than in the past.

I guarantee you your older relatives and 99% of people hunting rabbits around family farms in the 60's-80's weren't buying hunting licenses to do so.

The numbers I referenced above are from documented license sales, not estimates.

 

[SDHNTR]

Wrong! Those of you who just think it’s old farts (I’m only mid 40’s) grousing about “kids these days” simply fail to grasp the full extent of the problem. And/or are beneficiaries of social media removing the earned component of the learning curve and conveniently refuse to admit it.

 

[gtriple]

Wrong! Those of you who just think it’s old farts grousing about “kids these days” simply fail to grasp the full extent of the problem. And/or are beneficiaries of social media removing the earned component of the learning curve and conveniently refuse to admit it.

Have you lambasted @robby denning for him talking publicly about specific areas in Idaho???

Idaho Mule Deer Management

Robby hosts Toby Boudreau of Idaho Fish and Game. Toby is a wildlife biologist who is a valuable leader in mule deer management in the West.

www.rokslide.com

Do you use a rifle with a scope? You should go back to using a traditional bow with stone arrow heads so to remove the un-earned component of inventing a more efficient hunting tool.

Every piece of information that you gather has shortened your learning curve. Why is this one component any different?

 

[robby denning]

Have you lambasted @robby denning for him talking publicly about specific areas in Idaho???

Idaho Mule Deer Management

Robby hosts Toby Boudreau of Idaho Fish and Game. Toby is a wildlife biologist who is a valuable leader in mule deer management in the West.

www.rokslide.com

Do you use a rifle with a scope? You should go back to using a traditional bow with stone arrow heads so to remove the un-earned component of inventing a more efficient hunting tool.

Every piece of information that you gather has shortened your learning curve. Why is this one component any different?

Fair enough, but I didn’t hotspot.

Talked about Idaho in general, and the different management strategies across the state.

 

[gtriple]

Fair enough, but I didn’t hotspot.

Talked about Idaho in general, and the different management strategies across the state.

How dare you mention a state!

I'm being slightly facetious to make a point. Great podcast by the way!

 

[SDHNTR]

Have you lambasted @robby denning for him talking publicly about specific areas in Idaho???

Idaho Mule Deer Management

Robby hosts Toby Boudreau of Idaho Fish and Game. Toby is a wildlife biologist who is a valuable leader in mule deer management in the West.

www.rokslide.com

Do you use a rifle with a scope? You should go back to using a traditional bow with stone arrow heads so to remove the un-earned component of inventing a more efficient hunting tool.

Every piece of information that you gather has shortened your learning curve. Why is this one component any different?

I don’t know why I bother…

I don’t know Robby Denning from Adam but I don’t think anyone should be making videos and blabbering about the how to or where to about hunting anymore. There may have been a time in the infancy of the internet where doing so on forums like this didn’t result in widespread harm of one form or another. That ship has sailed. It’s just too damaging now and no one should be doing it. I don’t care who you are. Just hunt for the sake of hunting, for the sanctity and personal fulfillment. For the food and connection with Mother Nature. That’s it! No one needs to inform or broadcast anything about hunting or hunting locations on the internet anymore. Share it in person with those closest to you and those you deem worthy, if you choose. Leave the internet out of the experience.

This isn’t broadly anti-technology or anti learning. It’s about technology making the learning too easy and accessible and what’s become easy and accessible then making a scare resource oversubscribed, and ultimately less accessible. A viscous circle. There’s a difference between information learned through genuine effort, reading, researching statistics, talking to biologists, etc and someone jackass on a YouTube video simply saying apply here, and hunt here. If you can’t see the difference and the harm in that, and instead think it’s a good thing, you are clearly part of the problem.

 

[gtriple]

I don’t know why I bother…

I don’t know Robby Denning from Adam but I don’t think anyone should be making videos and blabbering about the how to or where to about hunting anymore. There may have been a time in the infancy of the internet where doing so on forums like this didn’t result in widespread harm of one form or another. That ship has sailed. It’s just too damaging now and no one should be doing it. I don’t care who you are. Just hunt for the sake of hunting, for the sanctity and personal fulfillment. For the food and connection with Mother Nature. That’s it! No one needs to inform or broadcast anything about hunting or hunting locations on the internet anymore. Share it in person with those closest to you and those you deem worthy, if you choose. Leave the internet out of the experience.

This isn’t broadly anti-technology or anti learning. It’s about technology making the learning too easy and accessible and what’s become easy and accessible then making a scare resource oversubscribed, and ultimately less accessible. A viscous circle. There’s a difference between information learned through genuine effort, reading, researching statistics, talking to biologists, etc and someone jackass on a YouTube video simply saying apply here, and hunt here. If you can’t see the difference and the harm in that, you are clearly part of the problem.

I'd bet that the people that listen solely to the jackasses on a YouTube video are part of the 90% of hunters that kill 10% of the elk. Their lack of research and effort is really not helping them kill more animals. But their funds are definitely appreciated by the F&G departments.

Regardless of how we got to where we are today, this is the reality we are in. Complaining that somebody else took the easy route to figuring out which unit to hunt in is not solving the problem or helping in any way. Almost every single generation in human history has had it easier than the last generation. That's just the way things work. If you are in your mid-40s, then I bet the guys around here that didn't grow up with the internet feel the same way about you.

I do agree with you that posting about specific locations or units should be taboo. But if somebody wants to give away their honey hole on the internet and ensure that there's 100 other hunters there next season, that's their decision and they have to live with it.

 

[LuvsFixedBlades]

Until around 2004 I could drive to Wyoming, stop at the West Laramie Fly Store, buy my nonresident antelope permits, and go shoot a couple of antelope that afternoon. General elk tags were every year if applying special and 2 out of 3 years applying in the regular. Cow moose took zero points in the best area of the state. I can go on and on... If you don't think social media has been the #1 influence that changed that, you are crazy.

I remember those days in WY, too. MT, CO and ID as well.

How many NR big game tags did WY sell in 2004? How many do they sell now?

You could get a cow moose tag with zero points 20 years ago, but the non-res allocation wasn't 10% then, either. Did social media make WY screw over non-residents in terms of license allocations? I'll let you do your own research on that one. It's probably social media's fault Wyoming wont let non-residents hunt federal wilderness ground without paying for a guide also, when every other category of user, regardless of residency, is completely welcome to it. It's probably social media's fault that more and more wintering, calving/fawning and migratory ground is being developed also.

I agree with you 100% that social media has introduced many negative externalities to the sacred institution we all call "hunting". I certainly won't argue that, because its true. But, it isn't the reason all of the Western states just puckered up their non-resident sphincters to restrict tag sales. That's called money. If you don't think WGFD makes most of their money off of NR licenses, application fees, preference points and extortionary fees like an additional $72 for an "archery stamp" for non-residents on top of the license fees, YOU Sir, are the crazy one. It's all about money man. More money with the same amount of pressure on the resource. Why do people have to buy an annual small game/fishing license amounting to $100 or more in several Western states just to be able to qualify to apply in their big game draws? Must be social media's fault. Why do you need two types of preference points in MT to get a tag? You can have a pile of species specific points, but if you haven't bought enough bonus points to draw the "general or combo tag" on top of that, they wont let you use your species specific points. It's all about money, money, money.

It's like the diamond industry. Diamonds aren't actually scarce. They are rather plentiful. But, only a few operations control how many diamonds are released into the marketplace, this drives up prices because of the lower supply and built up demand. Non-resident tags are hunting's diamonds.

 

[Laramie]

I remember those days in WY, too. MT, CO and ID as well.

How many NR big game tags did WY sell in 2004? How many do they sell now?

You could get a cow moose tag with zero points 20 years ago, but the non-res allocation wasn't 10% then, either. Did social media make WY screw over non-residents in terms of license allocations? I'll let you do your own research on that one. It's probably social media's fault Wyoming wont let non-residents hunt federal wilderness ground without paying for a guide also, when every other category of user, regardless of residency, is completely welcome to it. It's probably social media's fault that more and more wintering, calving/fawning and migratory ground is being developed also.

I agree with you 100% that social media has introduced many negative externalities to the sacred institution we all call "hunting". I certainly won't argue that, because its true. But, it isn't the reason all of the Western states just puckered up their non-resident sphincters to restrict tag sales. That's called money. If you don't think WGFD makes most of their money off of NR licenses, application fees, preference points and extortionary fees like an additional $72 for an "archery stamp" for non-residents on top of the license fees, YOU Sir, are the crazy one. It's all about money man. More money with the same amount of pressure on the resource. Why do people have to buy an annual small game/fishing license amounting to $100 or more in several Western states just to be able to qualify to apply in their big game draws? Must be social media's fault. Why do you need two types of preference points in MT to get a tag? You can have a pile of species specific points, but if you haven't bought enough bonus points to draw the "general or combo tag" on top of that, they wont let you use your species specific points. It's all about money, money, money.

It's like the diamond industry. Diamonds aren't actually scarce. They are rather plentiful. But, only a few operations control how many diamonds are released into the marketplace, this drives up prices because of the lower supply and built up demand. Non-resident tags are hunting's diamonds.

If the demand hadn't been created, do you think the western states could have done what they have done over the past 10 years? Not a chance... Yes, they are taking advantage of the situation, absolutely, but they didn't create it.

2 factors did though - easily obtained information, i.e. social media, and technology in the form of virtual scouting and GPS navigation. I would argue GPS has been as big of a part of the problem as anything. 20 years ago it was damn intimidating for a guy east of the Mississippi to drive out west and hike in a few miles to hunt. So intimidating that it was very rare to see anyone more than a mile off a road.

We can't undo it and we sure aren't going to change the western systems for obtaining tags. What we can do as a hunting community is limit the amount of stupid easy information that is thrown out on the www for anyone to see. Take a map out and throw a dart anywhere in the rocky mountains. Now goggle that location and elk and you will find out enough to go hunting there in less than an hours time... crazy easy right now. For those reasons I 100% support what Rokslide is doing.

 

[SDHNTR]

I remember those days in WY, too. MT, CO and ID as well.

How many NR big game tags did WY sell in 2004? How many do they sell now?

You could get a cow moose tag with zero points 20 years ago, but the non-res allocation wasn't 10% then, either. Did social media make WY screw over non-residents in terms of license allocations? I'll let you do your own research on that one. It's probably social media's fault Wyoming wont let non-residents hunt federal wilderness ground without paying for a guide also, when every other category of user, regardless of residency, is completely welcome to it. It's probably social media's fault that more and more wintering, calving/fawning and migratory ground is being developed also.

I agree with you 100% that social media has introduced many negative externalities to the sacred institution we all call "hunting". I certainly won't argue that, because its true. But, it isn't the reason all of the Western states just puckered up their non-resident sphincters to restrict tag sales. That's called money. If you don't think WGFD makes most of their money off of NR licenses, application fees, preference points and extortionary fees like an additional $72 for an "archery stamp" for non-residents on top of the license fees, YOU Sir, are the crazy one. It's all about money man. More money with the same amount of pressure on the resource. Why do people have to buy an annual small game/fishing license amounting to $100 or more in several Western states just to be able to qualify to apply in their big game draws? Must be social media's fault. Why do you need two types of preference points in MT to get a tag? You can have a pile of species specific points, but if you haven't bought enough bonus points to draw the "general or combo tag" on top of that, they wont let you use your species specific points. It's all about money, money, money.

It's like the diamond industry. Diamonds aren't actually scarce. They are rather plentiful. But, only a few operations control how many diamonds are released into the marketplace, this drives up prices because of the lower supply and built up demand. Non-resident tags are hunting's diamonds.

Your Diamond analogy is not even close to accurate. Prized Western game animals actually ARE scarce. Very scarce. This isn’t a matter of public game agencies artificially limiting the supply to drive up the price of big game tags.

 

[SDHNTR]

If the demand hadn't been created, do you think the western states could have done what they have done over the past 10 years? Not a chance... Yes, they are taking advantage of the situation, absolutely, but they didn't create it.

2 factors did though - easily obtained information, i.e. social media, and technology in the form of virtual scouting and GPS navigation. I would argue GPS has been as big of a part of the problem as anything. 20 years ago it was damn intimidating for a guy east of the Mississippi to drive out west and hike in a few miles to hunt. So intimidating that it was very rare to see anyone more than a mile off a road.

We can't undo it and we sure aren't going to change the western systems for obtaining tags. What we can do as a hunting community is limit the amount of stupid easy information that is thrown out on the www for anyone to see. Take a map out and throw a dart anywhere in the rocky mountains. Now goggle that location and elk and you will find out enough to go hunting there in less than an hours time... crazy easy right now. For those reasons I 100% support what Rokslide is doing.

Amen!

 

[LuvsFixedBlades]

If the demand hadn't been created, do you think the western states could have done what they have done over the past 10 years? Not a chance... Yes, they are taking advantage of the situation, absolutely, but they didn't create it.

2 factors did though - easily obtained information, i.e. social media, and technology in the form of virtual scouting and GPS navigation. I would argue GPS has been as big of a part of the problem as anything. 20 years ago it was damn intimidating for a guy east of the Mississippi to drive out west and hike in a few miles to hunt. So intimidating that it was very rare to see anyone more than a mile off a road.

We can't undo it and we sure aren't going to change the western systems for obtaining tags. What we can do as a hunting community is limit the amount of stupid easy information that is thrown out on the www for anyone to see. Take a map out and throw a dart anywhere in the rocky mountains. Now goggle that location and elk and you will find out enough to go hunting there in less than an hours time... crazy easy right now. For those reasons I 100% support what Rokslide is doing.

I don't think you and I are as far off on this issue as it seems. I couldn't agree more with your point on the affects advancements in technology have had. Access to easy information, GPS, mapping software and added safety measures like cell phones and satellite comms (InReach) units have emboldened many non-mountain folks to venturing into the Western backcountry to hunt.

I still weight the responsibility of the non-resident tag scarcity dilemma much more heavily on Western states wildlife management departments ability to willfully decrease the supply just to jack up the prices around application fees, preference points and ancillary BS charges more than I blame social media. They love selling preference points, small game and fishing licenses they know nobody will use and application fees. It's free money. My basis for that opinion is that hunting license sales are still at the same number they were 40 years ago. Same amount of hunters, less non-resident tag allocations.

Even though we disagree on that point, I bet we'd get along just fine. Have a great season!