POSTING FOR AWARENESS FOR UTAH AND IDAHO RESIDENTS

[Poser]

China is putting data centers in the ocean cooled with a radiator that draws seas water and powering them with wind turbines.

 

[One300wsm]

I live in Utah and haven't researched it heavily, but from the articles I've read it is supposed to be a 12 GW operation, which is ~3x that of the states total power consumption. I've not looked into the cooling source that's proposed, but my wife said that it is to pull water from, I think, the Bear River which feed the salt lake.

Anyone done more in depth reliable research to verify those aspects?

Maybe this will help answer your question.

Developers are proposing to cool the Stratos data center using a combination of closed-loop fluid chilling and dry (air-based) cooling. According to the Utah Governor's Office and project developers, this setup is designed to prevent continuous water draw from the local environment.
Governor Cox (.gov) +1
The proposed cooling architecture relies on three primary components:

• Sealed Closed-Loop Recirculation:Cooling fluid will circulate entirely within sealed piping and equipment. It is never exposed to the outside air, meaning it will not evaporate. Developers plan to use existing on-site water rights for this initial fluid supply, using water that is otherwise too salty for human or agricultural use.
• Industrial Dry Air Coolers: To extract heat from the closed-loop system, the facility will utilize massive, air-cooled turbines and industrial-scale fans. This functions similarly to a giant car radiator, using ambient air rather than evaporating water to cool the internal piping.
• Subsurface Aquifer Dissipation:Developers have also considered piping hot water underground to utilize the deep aquifer beneath the Hansel Valley to naturally cool the system before the fluid is recycled back.
  Governor Cox

The Environmental Controversy
Despite claims of near-zero water consumption, the cooling plan faces significant backlash. Local physics and climate experts argue that air-cooling a 9-gigawatt facility in a high-desert summer is highly inefficient. Critics note that it would require roughly 400 acres of industrial fans blowing constantly, which will generate immense noise and massive "heat islands"—potentially raising daytime valley temperatures by 2°F to 5°F and nighttime temperatures by up to 12°F.
Furthermore, despite the "closed-loop" designation, recent water rights filings show the facility will still need to periodically flush hot water out of the system, raising concerns about thermal pollution near the fragile Great Salt Lake ecosystem.

 

[ODB]

I wish the engineering and scientific community would do a better job at explaining the different types of AI and the benefits and limitations associated with them.

I agree. The issue is that on the large scale AI became a play toy, a way to cheat, a way to be lazy. A way to make deep fakes that destroy truth and knowledge - to the point that the govt can release UAP images and no one cares because they think it’s all a psy-op, fake porn etc etc etc. also the public is sold AI will be some “leveler” whereby it will effectively bump your IQ or magically give you the ability to do amazing things that will
Make your life better. Of course what has happened is quite different. No one using free AI is doing anything worthwhile, and the expensive models have priced out the average Joe. So where are we left - yet another gap between the haves and have nots where the have nots are expected to just take it (anyone priced SSD recently?) . We live in a world that is becoming technology hostile because we've seen a generation or more stunted in intelligence and growth by the rapid onset of unfettered technology in the house at at school, and now we are being asked yet again to trust that THIS technology will be one that works. This is like every communist saying, "it's never been implemented correctly" yet the results are the same.

I'm not saying there is no place or usefulness to AI, I AM saying the AI industry has done one SHIT job of actually understanding how it is affecting people and showing any real concern about it - its just - 'we have to stay on top or china will eat our lunch.' and yet...

 

[Fever Buck]

Hey dudes, I design and build data centers for a living. I also used to work in the utility industry before moving over to the tech side. So, hoping I can provide good insight for those who care to learn more. Happy to answer any questions yall have.

Unfortunately China has started astroturfing anti data center information heavily in the US (and it’s working). Tech companies also aren’t helping this by staying quiet instead of combatting misinformation.

Data Centers use lots of electricity and more so if they opt for less or no water usage. However, we always pay for infrastructure upgrades needed to power our sites. Power companies aren’t ripping away residential power to feed data centers. Power rates have risen due to increased equipment cost post COVID along with renewable energy investments. Data centers are a scapegoat for this increased cost. We also dump a ton of money in to the local community and hire lots of local folks to run the sites. Positively changed a lot of peoples lives overnight once we move in somewhere. You will also see a ton of OSG “on site generation” being implemented for these sites so that will also help reduce any perceived strain on local residents for power.

Also, the water usage can be heavy in areas that can support it like the Midwest or Southeast . However, in places like Utah, NM, AZ, etc where there is less water, we would typically opt for non evaporative or closed loop cooling.

If a Data Center is getting built near you, you will see heavy construction on site for a few years and then it will ease up significantly once construction is complete. Then you will have a few hundred people supporting the site directly with lots of ancillary jobs opening around the local area due to the increased workforce and utility usage of the site. After that, it’s just a low profile concrete building with low traffic around the site and pretty damn quiet.

You will generally have access to very good fiber internet and a robust electrical grid if you live nearby.

 

[Fever Buck]

Maybe this will help answer your question.

Developers are proposing to cool the Stratos data center using a combination of closed-loop fluid chilling and dry (air-based) cooling. According to the Utah Governor's Office and project developers, this setup is designed to prevent continuous water draw from the local environment.
Governor Cox (.gov) +1
The proposed cooling architecture relies on three primary components:

• Sealed Closed-Loop Recirculation:Cooling fluid will circulate entirely within sealed piping and equipment. It is never exposed to the outside air, meaning it will not evaporate. Developers plan to use existing on-site water rights for this initial fluid supply, using water that is otherwise too salty for human or agricultural use.
• Industrial Dry Air Coolers: To extract heat from the closed-loop system, the facility will utilize massive, air-cooled turbines and industrial-scale fans. This functions similarly to a giant car radiator, using ambient air rather than evaporating water to cool the internal piping.
• Subsurface Aquifer Dissipation:Developers have also considered piping hot water underground to utilize the deep aquifer beneath the Hansel Valley to naturally cool the system before the fluid is recycled back.
  Governor Cox

The Environmental Controversy
Despite claims of near-zero water consumption, the cooling plan faces significant backlash. Local physics and climate experts argue that air-cooling a 9-gigawatt facility in a high-desert summer is highly inefficient. Critics note that it would require roughly 400 acres of industrial fans blowing constantly, which will generate immense noise and massive "heat islands"—potentially raising daytime valley temperatures by 2°F to 5°F and nighttime temperatures by up to 12°F.
Furthermore, despite the "closed-loop" designation, recent water rights filings show the facility will still need to periodically flush hot water out of the system, raising concerns about thermal pollution near the fragile Great Salt Lake ecosystem.

Just to add some context to the “heat island”. That study has not been peer reviewed. Nobody knows how the guy came up with his heat numbers and there’s a lot of variables not explained in his study. Just sucks because people have totally run with it which doesn’t help Data Center image.

 

[Fever Buck]

Also, everyone needs to understand we are in a high tech arms race with China. However you feel about US AI and Data Centers, you need to understand that China will not stop building. Do you want them to have better artificial intelligence and technology than the US?

 

[Fowl Play]

This is another totally bogus claim sold by Musk and Bezos to generate hype and investment in their space companies. Trust me, I know this very well. Solar power in space is incredibly expensive, inefficient, and unscalable when you factor in the real physical constraint of having to launch it all on a rocket. Cooling in space is INCREDIBLY HARD and again inefficient due to volume and mass constraints imposed by launching. It very much gobbles up resources on Earth, in reality. If they tell you they will manufacture these spaceborne mini datacenters in space from materials found in space, they are describing technology which is many decades away from being a reality and not relevant to this conversation. I don't buy it and neither should you.

Eh, we’ll see. Starship/super heavy launch capacity makes it feasible and they already have the world’s largest satellite constellation in existence (Starlink) — which is massively successful. If it was anyone else trying to sell it, I agree. But not too far fetched to essentially modify a larger Starlink satellite at scale. Time will tell.

 

[Poser]

Do you want them to have better artificial intelligence and technology than the US?

Depends on the nature and the volume of the quality of life we have to sacrifice. And, even if they win the AI wars of this decade, China is still on the inevitable population collapse timeline of 2035-2040.

 

[solarshooter]

Your post is generic and reads like propaganda, and your background and incentives mean that your perspective should be taken with much salt. Actual research and numerical assessment would say that almost everything you said here is a lie or gross misrepresentation. But again, to be expected considering your personal incentives. Does whatever company you work for give you these talking points to deal with data center detractors?

However, we always pay for infrastructure upgrades needed to power our sites. Power companies aren’t ripping away residential power to feed data centers. Power rates have risen due to increased equipment cost post COVID along with renewable energy investments. Data centers are a scapegoat for this increased cost.

Many examples to the contrary: local, state, and federal subsidies, exceptions to zoning and permitting granted, EIS waived, and so on. Power rates have risen DIRECTLY due to data center development. It's extremely correlated. Vaguely blaming COVID and renewables doesn't pass the sniff test at all.

We also dump a ton of money in to the local community and hire lots of local folks to run the sites. Positively changed a lot of peoples lives overnight once we move in somewhere.

Datacenters are famously unstaffed or minimally staffed. Dollar for dollar, acre for acre, they are not the best way to improve local economies. So don't pretend that benefitting the local community or economy is anything more than an accidental outcome to these projects.

You will also see a ton of OSG “on site generation” being implemented for these sites so that will also help reduce any perceived strain on local residents for power.

Reduce. Not eliminate. And "perceived strain" is BS, there are many direct reports of blackouts due to over demand on grids where datacenters have been built.

However, in places like Utah, NM, AZ, etc where there is less water, we would typically opt for non evaporative or closed loop cooling.

Which consumes extra power. And where does that heat go? Seems like some people need a lesson in basic thermodynamics and entropy.

Then you will have a few hundred people supporting the site directly with lots of ancillary jobs opening around the local area due to the increased workforce and utility usage of the site.

See earlier comment. A few hundred people supporting a site that consumes the resources of a few hundred thousand people and generates the profits of a few million. Are the local communities really getting their fair share of the profits?

After that, it’s just a low profile concrete building with low traffic around the site and pretty damn quiet.

Low profile, sure, except massive noise and light pollution at all hours of the day, massive impact on local environments. This is the most intellectually offensive statement of all in your post, and that's saying something.

 

[Fever Buck]

Your post is generic and reads like propaganda, and your background and incentives mean that your perspective should be taken with much salt. Actual research and numerical assessment would say that almost everything you said here is a lie or gross misrepresentation. But again, to be expected considering your personal incentives. Does whatever company you work for give you these talking points to deal with data center detractors?


Many examples to the contrary: local, state, and federal subsidies, exceptions to zoning and permitting granted, EIS waived, and so on. Power rates have risen DIRECTLY due to data center development. It's extremely correlated. Vaguely blaming COVID and renewables doesn't pass the sniff test at all.


Datacenters are famously unstaffed or minimally staffed. Dollar for dollar, acre for acre, they are not the best way to improve local economies. So don't pretend that benefitting the local community or economy is anything more than an accidental outcome to these projects.


Reduce. Not eliminate. And "perceived strain" is BS, there are many direct reports of blackouts due to over demand on grids where datacenters have been built.


Which consumes extra power. And where does that heat go? Seems like some people need a lesson in basic thermodynamics and entropy.


See earlier comment. A few hundred people supporting a site that consumes the resources of a few hundred thousand people and generates the profits of a few million. Are the local communities really getting their fair share of the profits?


Low profile, sure, except massive noise and light pollution at all hours of the day, massive impact on local environments. This is the most intellectually offensive statement of all in your post, and that's saying something.

Dude, I’m just a random guy on the internet. Nobody I work for has given me any talking points. It’s fine for you to not have the same opinions but to say I’m being vague and spreading propaganda isn’t fair or accurate. Saying I’m lying is also insulting, I won’t be doing the same to you. I simply posted to have a good faith discussion but it seems like you have some emotional issue with my stance. You’ve also posted almost nothing specific besides lots of “feelings” based verbiage.

Do you work for a utility? I worked for one for most of a decade on the generation side and can 1000% say that the state I was in experienced a 40% rise in power cost without a single large data center existing in the entire state.

I knew you didn’t know what you were talking about the second you talked about massive noise and light pollution. Have you taken part of any of those studies we do to submit to the local jurisdiction for approval during our front end planning?

I’ve taken thermodynamics, and I understand there will be heat rejection. All I stated is that there has only been one study done that hasn’t been peer reviewed. I’d like to see more evidence before we all jump on the heat island claims.

I should’ve known better than to post but thought I could have a civil discussion. Guess I was wrong.

 

[One300wsm]

Dude, I’m just a random guy on the internet. Nobody I work for has given me any talking points. It’s fine for you to not have the same opinions but to say I’m being vague and spreading propaganda isn’t fair or accurate. Saying I’m lying is also insulting, I won’t be doing the same to you. I simply posted to have a good faith discussion but it seems like you have some emotional issue with my stance. You’ve also posted almost nothing specific besides lots of “feelings” based verbiage.

Do you work for a utility? I worked for one for most of a decade on the generation side and can 1000% say that the state I was in experienced a 40% rise in power cost without a single large data center existing in the entire state.

I knew you didn’t know what you were talking about the second you talked about massive noise and light pollution. Have you taken part of any of those studies we do to submit to the local jurisdiction for approval during our front end planning?

I’ve taken thermodynamics, and I understand there will be heat rejection. All I stated is that there has only been one study done that hasn’t been peer reviewed. I’d like to see more evidence before we all jump on the heat island claims.

I should’ve known better than to post but thought I could have a civil discussion. Guess I was wrong.

Fever Buck, you also seem like an intelligent person but you have a dog in this fight it’s your business as we all can clearly see. Kind of puts me in mind of Al Gore and John Kerry at the World Economic Forum after giving a global warming speech, they shake hands and both get on there private jets and spread pollution all the back to the United States. Back in the hollow, we call them people hypocrites and other words they lie a lot to get what there after which 9 times out of 10 is or Money, mostly money. I might not be educated but I ant stupid

 

[Fever Buck]

Your post is generic and reads like propaganda, and your background and incentives mean that your perspective should be taken with much salt. Actual research and numerical assessment would say that almost everything you said here is a lie or gross misrepresentation. But again, to be expected considering your personal incentives. Does whatever company you work for give you these talking points to deal with data center detractors?


Many examples to the contrary: local, state, and federal subsidies, exceptions to zoning and permitting granted, EIS waived, and so on. Power rates have risen DIRECTLY due to data center development. It's extremely correlated. Vaguely blaming COVID and renewables doesn't pass the sniff test at all.


Datacenters are famously unstaffed or minimally staffed. Dollar for dollar, acre for acre, they are not the best way to improve local economies. So don't pretend that benefitting the local community or economy is anything more than an accidental outcome to these projects.


Reduce. Not eliminate. And "perceived strain" is BS, there are many direct reports of blackouts due to over demand on grids where datacenters have been built.


Which consumes extra power. And where does that heat go? Seems like some people need a lesson in basic thermodynamics and entropy.


See earlier comment. A few hundred people supporting a site that consumes the resources of a few hundred thousand people and generates the profits of a few million. Are the local communities really getting their fair share of the profits?


Low profile, sure, except massive noise and light pollution at all hours of the day, massive impact on local environments. This is the most intellectually offensive statement of all in your post, and that's saying something

Forgot to respond to some of the other points:

- On site generation: yes eliminate, again you keep talking like you are the one making the decisions for these DCs. You aren’t. Most of these large data centers will power themselves. There have been zero blackouts caused by large data centers. We have system protection and monitoring agreements with utilities that automatically drop us from the grid in stages if power ever gets sketchy. We power ourselves with generators (which also had to pass sound permitting from the local jurisdiction).

- I don’t understand the local community comment. Data centers are a business. We “accidentally” and purposely benefit local communities. Just depends on the specific benefit.

 

[Fever Buck]

Fever Buck, you also seem like an intelligent person but you have a dog in this fight it’s your business as we all can clearly see. Kind of puts me in mind of Al Gore and John Kerry at the World Economic Forum after giving a global warming speech, they shake hands and both get on there private jets and spread pollution all the back to the United States. Back in the hollow, we call them people hypocrites and other words they lie a lot to get what there after which 9 times out of 10 is or Money, mostly money. I might not be educated but I ant stupid

And that’s totally fine man. I was very up front with my background. If I thought it was bad for our country I wouldn’t do what I do. I have a young family and care greatly for this country and the wild places we have in it. Just wanted to bring nuance to the discussion that I normally don’t see in these Data Center discussions. I wouldn’t consider myself a liar or hypocrite, and I’m definitely not a politician who takes a private jet to the WEF.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

As I say at work it’s above my pay grade!!!
This thread has just went above my IQ !!!
I hope it all works out for all involved, I don’t need AI and I’m not scared of China. I grew up without running water until the age of 7, I used an out house until I was 10. We actually played outside and entertained ourselves and worked in the garden and push mowed the yard. I have evolved enormously without any help from AI, I can stay 16 days in the backcountry without a cellphone or computer and not get the shakes. Not saying I don’t like the luxuries of today’s world but I can take them or leave them. Today’s kids can’t and it’s sad, our youth has been brainwashed. Hunting will be an afterthought and won’t exist in 100 years, but AI will be walking the streets. Good luck with your Big Data Center Utah hope it all works out for the best.

My wife gets on my case when my cell phone goes dead. I have to tell her I haven't looked at the damned thing for 3 days.

 

[One300wsm]

Forgot to respond to some of the other points:

- On site generation: yes eliminate, again you keep talking like you are the one making the decisions for these DCs. You aren’t. Most of these large data centers will power themselves. There have been zero blackouts caused by large data centers. We have system protection and monitoring agreements with utilities that automatically drop us from the grid in stages if power ever gets sketchy. We power ourselves with generators (which also had to pass sound permitting from the local jurisdiction).

- I don’t understand the local community comment. Data centers are a business. We “accidentally” and purposely benefit local communities. Just depends on the specific benefit.

Fever Buck,
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t dislike you or what you do for a living we just disagree and that’s ok. We can still sit down have a beer and talk hunting, fishing, women anything but technology it’s not allowed .
PS: I don’t think your a liar or hypocrite just thought it sounded good for Al and John.

 

[Fatcamp]

Hey dudes, I design and build data centers for a living. I also used to work in the utility industry before moving over to the tech side. So, hoping I can provide good insight for those who care to learn more. Happy to answer any questions yall have.

Unfortunately China has started astroturfing anti data center information heavily in the US (and it’s working). Tech companies also aren’t helping this by staying quiet instead of combatting misinformation.

Data Centers use lots of electricity and more so if they opt for less or no water usage. However, we always pay for infrastructure upgrades needed to power our sites. Power companies aren’t ripping away residential power to feed data centers. Power rates have risen due to increased equipment cost post COVID along with renewable energy investments. Data centers are a scapegoat for this increased cost. We also dump a ton of money in to the local community and hire lots of local folks to run the sites. Positively changed a lot of peoples lives overnight once we move in somewhere. You will also see a ton of OSG “on site generation” being implemented for these sites so that will also help reduce any perceived strain on local residents for power.

Also, the water usage can be heavy in areas that can support it like the Midwest or Southeast . However, in places like Utah, NM, AZ, etc where there is less water, we would typically opt for non evaporative or closed loop cooling.

If a Data Center is getting built near you, you will see heavy construction on site for a few years and then it will ease up significantly once construction is complete. Then you will have a few hundred people supporting the site directly with lots of ancillary jobs opening around the local area due to the increased workforce and utility usage of the site. After that, it’s just a low profile concrete building with low traffic around the site and pretty damn quiet.

You will generally have access to very good fiber internet and a robust electrical grid if you live nearby.

This reads like it was written by chatgpt.

Let me ask for your opinion on the pace of this development and what it will look like in five years. Reddit commenter brought up that these massive projects will be outdated in a matter of a couple years. Thoughts?

And can you comment on whether or not AI is currently profitable, or is this just speculation? There must be an amazing amount of money being poured into it, but where is it making money?

 

[BLJ]

Then you will have a few hundred people supporting the site directly with lots of ancillary jobs opening around the local area due to the increased workforce and utility usage of the site.

The one being proposed local to me is in a very rural area that is not greatly accessible.

What forms of ancillary jobs have you seen connected to the building of these data centers?

 

[NRA4LIFE]

A couple janitors and an IT guy on call?

 

[Fever Buck]

This reads like it was written by chatgpt.

Let me ask for your opinion on the pace of this development and what it will look like in five years. Reddit commenter brought up that these massive projects will be outdated in a matter of a couple years. Thoughts?

And can you comment on whether or not AI is currently profitable, or is this just speculation? There must be an amazing amount of money being poured into it, but where is it making money?

I’ve actually never used AI to write anything for me, I'm just not a very talented writer unfortunately so maybe that’s why it sounds like it came from Chat GPT. I graduated college about 15 years too late to have used it then. I mostly use some AI for help with quick engineering calcs and code look ups.

So for the 3 companies that I’ve worked for, we’ve seen about 20 years before you need to actually scrap the building. The good thing is that we have a pretty good 10+ year plan on what the power draw from the racks will look like and so we know how to size our electrical and mechanic systems. You do see the server racks get swapped out every few years like you would with a computer at work. But the main infrastructure will stay the same with occasional retrofits to upsize random gear when needed.

Yes, so far we have found that AI is making money, but only recently. For a long time it was a major money pit. That’s why you see the arms race with Claude, Gemeni, Chat GPT, etc. However, it seems be pretty company specific. Gemeni and Claude seem to be the most successful with creating AI products that people actually want to purchase while Open AI/Chat GPT is starting to struggle for funding.

Another benefit is even if AI turns out to be total BS, you still need most of these data centers for cloud and computing capacity with our ever growing virtual world.

These companies are basically selling their AI products to companies and individuals like any other software sales in the past.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Man, when you work in the AEC industry, people will complain about every type of project you work on.