Pfizer clinical trial data: not good at all

[Yukon Cornelius]

Sure are a lot of medical experts here. I suppose it’s true because I read it on the internet.

 

[Mike Islander]

Sure are a lot of medical experts here. I suppose it’s true because I read it on the internet.

Definitely a good bunch on this thread that have done lots of homework, and a good bunch that don't seem to have done any. And a good bunch in between.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Definitely a good bunch on this thread that have done lots of homework, and a good bunch that don't seem to have done any. And a good bunch in between.

But did they really do their homework? Watching YouTube or listening to a podcast doesn’t really count as research. Lol

 

[Mike Islander]

But did they really do their homework? Watching YouTube or listening to a podcast doesn’t really count as research. Lol

As I said, a bunch did. A bunch didn't. And a bunch did some.

 

[MattB]

As opposed to Big Pharma's paltry $1.27 trillion annual revenue. 1270X more revenue at stake.

As for all things that matter, be your own best researcher. Consider the data over the source; then consider the source of the data creation. Then cross reference the literature. Then look at the statistics of the actual real world outcomes. Then make your best informed decision.

Hiding any facts prevents informed decision and leads to mistrust that fuels groups that won't take anything from those who hide the data seriously.

My point was that there are profit motivations by those on both sides of the vaccine debate. Many here seem to believe that of only one side (big pharma) and assume the prolific critics of the vaccines are doing so out of a sense of altruism. Many are just taking advantage of the situation to line their own pockets.

Totally agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

As I said, a bunch did. A bunch didn't. And a bunch did some.

I’ll agree simply because I’m confused. Lol j/k. I agree because you’re right.

 

[MattB]

That's not a fair assessment and could easily be argued to be a false statement. Now is it easy to make a vaccine for influenza or coronavirus, that is proven to be efficacious year after year, season after season, no it is not.

Based on all that I have read, the COVID vaccines are still ~90% effective at preventing severe disease and death. Flu vaccine effectiveness from year to year is variable and even in good years is not as effective at preventing severe disease as the COVID vaccines are. Examples take from the CDC web page on flu vaccines:

• A 2021 studyexternal icon showed that among adults, flu vaccination was associated with a 26% lower risk of ICU admission and a 31% lower risk of death from flu compared to those who were unvaccinated.
• A 2018 studyexternal icon showed that among adults hospitalized with flu, vaccinated patients were 59 percent less likely to be admitted to the ICU than those who had not been vaccinated.

If I have it wrong and flu vaccine is typically as effective as the COVID vaccines, I would enjoy reading the details.

Vaccine Effectiveness: How Well Do Flu Vaccines Work? | CDC

Influenza vaccine effectiveness questions and answers - CDC

www.cdc.gov

 

[Skerhunter]

that's not what he said though. Once again, this is an exercise in "clip out only the words convenient for me."

"And I think we're seeing that now across the U.S., in places where there are good vaccination rates, you're seeing that the virus isn't spreading as easily. It's only spreading in unvaccinated people. So the strength of vaccination in terms of not only protecting people, but now limiting the emergence of other variants by reducing the overall replication of the virus in the population is clearly seen."

Cutting a single sentence out and pretending the speaker means something entirely different is not behaving with integrity. We should all be striving to behave with integrity here.

Integrity? He stated that the virus is only spreading in nonvax people, to support his idea that more people getting the vaccine would reduce the number of mutations. But we now know that the virus can infect, replicate, spread, and kill people that are vaccinated. Therefore his theory is in question and might be completely disproven.

I’m not cherry picking info I am stating a fact that directly contradicts your statement.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Integrity? He stated that the virus is only spreading in nonvax people, to support his idea that more people getting the vaccine would reduce the number of mutations. But we now know that the virus can infect, replicate, spread, and kill people that are vaccinated. Therefore his theory is in question and might be completely disproven.

I’m not cherry picking info I am stating a fact that directly contradicts your statement.

He said "as much" literally in the preceding sentence but keep going, you'll fool someone.

Zeroing in on a sentence to the point of intentionally excluding the preceding sentence in order to derive a different meaning is cherry picking. Ignoring the entire body of the interview to focus on that even moreso.

You know that an effective immune response prevents the virus from replicating as much right? it prevents it from entering the cell and using the organelles to replicate, which is what prevents it from taking hold, which means it replicates fewer times, which means less chance to mutate and to spread. This is not unique to COVID or even to SARS-like respiratory viruses.

But you found one sentence that, devoid of context lets you reject everything else, so lets keep harping on that.

 

[Skerhunter]

Based on all that I have read, the COVID vaccines are still ~90% effective at preventing severe disease and death. Flu vaccine effectiveness from year to year is variable and even in good years is not as effective at preventing severe disease as the COVID vaccines are. Examples take from the CDC web page on flu vaccines:

• A 2021 studyexternal icon showed that among adults, flu vaccination was associated with a 26% lower risk of ICU admission and a 31% lower risk of death from flu compared to those who were unvaccinated.
• A 2018 studyexternal icon showed that among adults hospitalized with flu, vaccinated patients were 59 percent less likely to be admitted to the ICU than those who had not been vaccinated.

If I have it wrong and flu vaccine is typically as effective as the COVID vaccines, I would enjoy reading the details.

Vaccine Effectiveness: How Well Do Flu Vaccines Work? | CDC

Influenza vaccine effectiveness questions and answers - CDC

www.cdc.gov

As the virus continues to mutate in the wild, don’t be surprised if the number resemble the flu vaccine. This virus hasn’t even gotten started yet compared to influenza. Keep in mind too these covid numbers are estimates. We are not setting up challenge models to determine how effective they are against various strains and viral loads (slightly unethical ).

 

[MattB]

Integrity? He stated that the virus is only spreading in nonvax people, to support his idea that more people getting the vaccine would reduce the number of mutations. But we now know that the virus can infect, replicate, spread, and kill people that are vaccinated. Therefore his theory is in question and might be completely disproven.

I’m not cherry picking info I am stating a fact that directly contradicts your statement.

The truth is in the middle, but my sense is it likely still favors the vaccine. It has been demonstrated that the vaccines provide some level of protection from infection even with Omicron. And, while we know that vaccinated people can become infected and spread the virus, it has been demonstrated that the vaccinated tend to clear infection more quickly which reduces the number of replications and presumably the potential for mutation. Time will tell how/whether Omicron changes these dynamics.

"Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory."

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...

www.thelancet.com

 

[Skerhunter]

He said "as much" literally in the preceding sentence but keep going, you'll fool someone.

Zeroing in on a sentence to the point of intentionally excluding the preceding sentence in order to derive a different meaning is cherry picking. Ignoring the entire body of the interview to focus on that even moreso.

You know that an effective immune response prevents the virus from replicating as much right? it prevents it from entering the cell and using the organelles to replicate, which is what prevents it from taking hold, which means it replicates fewer times, which means less chance to mutate and to spread. This is not unique to COVID or even to SARS-like respiratory viruses.

But you found one sentence that, devoid of context lets you reject everything else, so lets keep harping on that.

So you are saying in a vaccinated person who is infected the virus is not replicating million to billions of times, just like it does in non vaccinated people? Pretty sure any host that is infected will allow the virus to replicate, giving it the chance to mutate.

Once again, thanks for the virology lesson. I highly value your expertise in the field.

 

[Skerhunter]

The truth is in the middle, but my sense is it likely still favors the vaccine. It has been demonstrated that the vaccines provide some level of protection from infection even with Omicron. And, while we know that vaccinated people can become infected and spread the virus, it has been demonstrated that the vaccinated tend to clear infection more quickly which reduces the number of replications and presumably the potential for mutation. Time will tell how/whether Omicron changes these dynamics.

"Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory."

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...

www.thelancet.com

Agreed, unfortunately now we must wait and see!

 

[MattB]

As the virus continues to mutate in the wild, don’t be surprised if the number resemble the flu vaccine. This virus hasn’t even gotten started yet compared to influenza. Keep in mind too these covid numbers are estimates. We are not setting up challenge models to determine how effective they are against various strains and viral loads (slightly unethical ).

Well aware. I am just looking historically.

There is a guy on another forum I frequent who is deep in the weeds on the science side of COVID, and he has been suggesting for months that the vaccines may need to become multivalent like the flu shot to address variants.

 

[Dos Perros]

I'm not a history expert, but I know the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th 1941. I wasn't there myself. Didn't do the research myself. Wasn't even alive then. But, I assert that anyway. Someone please argue with me on the veracity of this claim, and why I'm not qualified to make it.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

No evidence the vaccines are effective? That data is available in troves for anyone who cares to look. No offense, but that is a massively ignorant take.

Is it? It doesn’t inoculate like we were told it would. If you have the vaccine it doesn’t prevent you from getting and transmitting it. There is no data that supports its ability to decrease symptoms or hospitalization. There is data that supports 78% of those hospitalized were obese and on average those who died with covid have 4 comorbidities.

Maybe instead of forcing vaccination that should force people to stop stuffing their mouths full of fast food and exercise?

This isn’t a vaccine. Its a flu shot that doesn’t work that well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

So you are saying in a vaccinated person who is infected the virus is not replicating million to billions of times, just like it does in non vaccinated people? Pretty sure any host that is infected will allow the virus to replicate, giving it the chance to mutate.

Once again, thanks for the virology lesson. I highly value your expertise in the field.

No, not just like it does in the unvaccinated.

A leaky gasoline pump and the BP Horizon disaster both leaked petrochemicals into the water supply but nobody would honestly try to argue that they're the same or have the same effect.

 

[ODB]

No, not just like it does in the unvaccinated.

A leaky gasoline pump and the BP Horizon disaster both leaked petrochemicals into the water supply but nobody would honestly try to argue that they're the same or have the same effect.

Not what Fauci said. From Face the Nation in August:

“What we learned that's new, John, in answer to your question, is that when you look at the level of virus in the nasopharynx of people who are vaccinated who get breakthrough infections, it's really quite high and equivalent to the level of virus in the nasopharynx of unvaccinated people who get infected,"

 

[camping1601]

How did we go from d to o for virus mutation names?

They needed something that sounds menacing just before the holidays.

Hell I just saw two people in their car alone with masks on so it working.

 

[MattB]

Is it? It doesn’t inoculate like we were told it would. If you have the vaccine it doesn’t prevent you from getting and transmitting it. There is no data that supports its ability to decrease symptoms or hospitalization. There is data that supports 78% of those hospitalized were obese and on average those who died with covid have 4 comorbidities.

Maybe instead of forcing vaccination that should force people to stop stuffing their mouths full of fast food and exercise?

This isn’t a vaccine. Its a flu shot that doesn’t work that well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are one of those "the only data that exists is that which reinforces my uneducated opinions" guys. Good luck with that.