Pfizer clinical trial data: not good at all

[MattB]

Nearly half of the hospital staff where my aunt runs the OR wing have quit the hospital over vax mandates. Janitors, nurses, the head of neuro-surgery, the head of cardiovascular surgeries, an OBGYN, I could go on. Is that a conspiracy theory or do you think anyone who disagrees with you is a flat out liar?

What percentage of the 20+million US healthcare workers are employed by that hospital?

Where are the statistics that validate that vaccine mandates are primarily responsible for a decrease in the number of employed Healthcare workers? Posting unsupported assertions (and then demanding other people prove them wrong rather than posting support themselves) doesn't make a person a flat out liar, it just ads nothing to the conversation and diminishes their credibility.

There is plenty of evidence that would suggest that factors other than the vaccine mandates which have driven people out of healthcare (or to other jobs within the healthcare field). This article cites heavy workloads, burnout, and stress as contributing factors. It also lists the impacts of the COVID pandemic, Strangely, it does not list vaccine mandates. You'd think it would if it was in fact the primary factor - no?

Post-Pandemic Nursing Shortage: Effects On Aspiring Nurses

The 2020 pandemic has had a significant impact on nurses and a growing global shortage. Here's how it impacts nursing practice.

nursejournal.org

From this article, it sounds like the downstream impacts of the lack of vaccination is a contributing factor. It likewise doesn't list vaccine mandates as a reason. Funny.

"That sense of burnout has become more common among nurses in the US during the pandemic because of anxiety, depression and exhaustion due to the increased workload; fears of catching the virus; and the witnessing of so many deaths, among other reasons, according to several studies."

‘I can’t do this any more’: US faces nurse shortage from burnout

Anxiety, depression and exhaustion, as well as fears of catching Covid, and the witnessing of so many deaths, are among some of the reasons, according to several studies

www.theguardian.com

 

[MattB]

Why are the pro vaxxers worried about the nonvaxxers killing people? Nobody has an issue with it when it comes to the flu every year.

You guys could always move to Australia and work enforcement at the quarantine camps.

The flu vax hasn't been demonstrated to be nearly as effective as the COVID vaccines.

 

[dieselchessy]

Seems there is lots of confusion about the medical terminology. I admit I don't know the exact definition of the terms.
It would seem to me the vaccine is to teach your body how to fight the virus. A warm up or practice run per se.
The vaccine wouldn't and couldn't prevent the virus from entering your body and trying to do its thing. It just prepares your body to fight the virus off.
Some folks talk as if its somehow supposed to be a shield against the virus getting in your body. Or that every persons body is supposed to somehow react the same to the vaccine and the virus.
How's that supposed to work? Some folks could be killed or severely injured with a few peanuts, a hand full of wheat, a few strawberries, a bee sting, a glass of milk, or just plain old sunshine. Other folks could take all those things at once in a fairly large dose and suffer no ill effects.

I was in the Marines, and so have been shot up with all kinds of drugs. That I'm aware I've suffered no ill effects. I was in when the whole Anthrax vaccine hoopla was ongoing. That one didn't kill me either.
We would get shots as a platoon or company. So I got to see lots of folks get the same shots all at the same time. It seemed that about every evolution someone got sick, passed out, ect... We'd get the flu shot and some of the guys would seemingly get the flu from the shot. Mind you these were all relatively healthy young folks when compared to the civilian populous. So I'm not surprised at all when folks talk of adverse reactions to shots. I'm pretty sure you could just tell people you gave them a shot and some of them would suffer adverse reactions.

I've had the Pfizer vaccine and the booster. I expect like the flu virus they will continue to come out with boosters to try and account for mutations and keep immune response built up. I expect that similar to tetanus, anthrax, ect.... boosters will be needed going forward at some interval.

I know folks who have had serious complications from covid who were not vaccinated. I know folks who suffered no more than the flu or common cold from covid who were not vaccinated. I know many folks who are vaccinated and know of none who have suffered lasting effects from covid after vaccination or from the vaccine itself. I know folks who were vaccinated and still had mild symptoms from contracting covid post vaccination.

I know there are folks who smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol but refuse to get the vaccine due to concerns of it not being proven safe.

 

[Yoder]

What was the CDC's published stance on mask usage prior to about August of 2020? What was the stance of the entire western medical community on mask usage to prevent respiratory disease of the public since forever? What landmark study, with a standardized protocol, has been published in the last 2 years to completely change these recommendations? Not meta analysis, not retrospective studies, not people coughing on a petri dish with and without masks, and not wearing a mask in the winter and watching all the condensation.

In order for the medical community to completely change their policy or stance it used to require a landmark study proving otherwise. So far, that study doesn't exist.

It's a math problem. Particle size, filter media size. If the particle is too small for the filter media to capture it doesn't work. It also has to be a good seal on your face. That's it. No peer review double blind study needed.

 

[lif]

What percentage of the 20+million US healthcare workers are employed by that hospital?

Where are the statistics that validate that vaccine mandates are primarily responsible for a decrease in the number of employed Healthcare workers? Posting unsupported assertions (and then demanding other people prove them wrong rather than posting support themselves) doesn't make a person a flat out liar, it just ads nothing to the conversation and diminishes their credibility.

There is plenty of evidence that would suggest that factors other than the vaccine mandates which have driven people out of healthcare (or to other jobs within the healthcare field). This article cites heavy workloads, burnout, and stress as contributing factors. It also lists the impacts of the COVID pandemic, Strangely, it does not list vaccine mandates. You'd think it would if it was in fact the primary factor - no?

Post-Pandemic Nursing Shortage: Effects On Aspiring Nurses

The 2020 pandemic has had a significant impact on nurses and a growing global shortage. Here's how it impacts nursing practice.

nursejournal.org

From this article, it sounds like the downstream impacts of the lack of vaccination is a contributing factor. It likewise doesn't list vaccine mandates as a reason. Funny.

"That sense of burnout has become more common among nurses in the US during the pandemic because of anxiety, depression and exhaustion due to the increased workload; fears of catching the virus; and the witnessing of so many deaths, among other reasons, according to several studies."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/19/us-faces-nurse-shortage-burnout-covid[/

http://

What percentage of the 20+million US healthcare workers are employed by that hospital?

Where are the statistics that validate that vaccine mandates are primarily responsible for a decrease in the number of employed Healthcare workers? Posting unsupported assertions (and then demanding other people prove them wrong rather than posting support themselves) doesn't make a person a flat out liar, it just ads nothing to the conversation and diminishes their credibility.

There is plenty of evidence that would suggest that factors other than the vaccine mandates which have driven people out of healthcare (or to other jobs within the healthcare field). This article cites heavy workloads, burnout, and stress as contributing factors. It also lists the impacts of the COVID pandemic, Strangely, it does not list vaccine mandates. You'd think it would if it was in fact the primary factor - no?

Post-Pandemic Nursing Shortage: Effects On Aspiring Nurses

The 2020 pandemic has had a significant impact on nurses and a growing global shortage. Here's how it impacts nursing practice.

nursejournal.org

From this article, it sounds like the downstream impacts of the lack of vaccination is a contributing factor. It likewise doesn't list vaccine mandates as a reason. Funny.

"That sense of burnout has become more common among nurses in the US during the pandemic because of anxiety, depression and exhaustion due to the increased workload; fears of catching the virus; and the witnessing of so many deaths, among other reasons, according to several studies."

‘I can’t do this any more’: US faces nurse shortage from burnout

Anxiety, depression and exhaustion, as well as fears of catching Covid, and the witnessing of so many deaths, are among some of the reasons, according to several studies

www.theguardian.com

you’ve made it very clear how you form your opinions, if it isn’t on the internet then it isn’t real. If it isn’t information given to you by the government, large pharmaceutical companies, or main stream media, then it can’t be true. Many people right now have completely disregarded anything someone has seen or been told first hand. My wife’s hospital lost almost 20% of all their employees because of vaccine mandates. Did that not happen because you can’t find it on the internet? The health care workers and public citizens held anti mandate rally’s in my town that exceeded 1500 people in an area of 90,000. The local news told the healthcare workers to their faces that they would not cover or report on the rallies. Did that not happen because it didn’t make the news? My wife’s hospital then Completely reversed course and granted exemptions to everyone who asked for them to get their employees back. Did that not happen because it isn’t on the internet or news?

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Getting my 2 cents in before this is shut down..

I am an MD, been in the Covid trenches since day 1 essentially.

Absolutely agree that the general public has been fleeced with false hope and promises surrounding the vaccine.

To say that the vaccine increases risk of illness and death is absurd. We have so much data beyond the clinical trials to support this. This is probably the one reason I recommend family and friends to be vaccinated…it does a good job of preventing you from dying or staying in the hospital from Covid. Not perfect, but very good at it. As I type this I’m recovering from Covid myself, thankfully mild symptoms.

Aside from the data, I’ve seen first hand lots (hundreds) of folks sick and dying from Covid. None of the really sick/dying were vaccinated that I saw. There were a few I heard about in our hospital but very rare.

Believe what you want, get the jab(s) or not, but probably best to avoid fringe junk like this. Worse than clickbait.

What is your specialization? I highly doubt you are more qualified to offer an opinion on thr subject than Dr McCullough. There is no evidence the vaccine is safe or effective. Particularly regarding long term effects of the MRNA vaccine. In fact I think it is super irresponsible to push these onto people without disclosing all of the potential side effects so they can have informed consent. You MDs don’t do that because they don’t provide the information to you.

My wife and I and my kids are all unvaccinated and also had mild symptoms when we had covid last month. I think that has less to do with the vax and more to do with the persons overall health and genetics.

With all the evidence available its no wonder high profile democrats like Rogan and Bill Maurer are starting to fill in the blanks and realize that this vaccine is going to go down as the scam of the century. Vaccines inoculate. We were all told that if you had the vaccine you could not get covid - that was the narrative. Its proven to be false and I don’t see any reason the narrative regarding the vax and mild symptoms will also be proven false.


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[fwafwow]

http://

you’ve made it very clear how you form your opinions, if it isn’t on the internet then it isn’t real. If it isn’t information given to you by the government, large pharmaceutical companies, or main stream media, then it can’t be true. Many people right now have completely disregarded anything someone has seen or been told first hand. My wife’s hospital lost almost 20% of all their employees because of vaccine mandates. Did that not happen because you can’t find it on the internet? The health care workers and public citizens held anti mandate rally’s in my town that exceeded 1500 people in an area of 90,000. The local news told the healthcare workers to their faces that they would not cover or report on the rallies. Did that not happen because it didn’t make the news? My wife’s hospital then Completely reversed course and granted exemptions to everyone who asked for them to get their employees back. Did that not happen because it isn’t on the internet or news?

I think he was (in part) making a point about anecdotal evidence. I believe you asked for info and @Actual_Cryptid and I offered to find what you seek. Apart from first hand evidence, I’m even more confused as to what sort of info would be helpful. The collective first hand experiences of all of us who have nothing better to do than post to this thread?

 

[fwafwow]

Nah! You're good Carry on!

I couldn’t manage to follow my own advice. There may need to be a new mod imposed rule - a mandatory week long restriction on posting imposed on anyone who posts more than 5 times on any General Discussion thread.

 

[lif]

I think he was (in part) making a point about anecdotal evidence. I believe you asked for info and @Actual_Cryptid and I offered to find what you seek. Apart from first hand evidence, I’m even more confused as to what sort of info would be helpful. The collective first hand experiences of all of us who have nothing better to do than post to this thread?

The data that has been provided in this thread are the trials by the pharmaceutical companies before it was given in mass to the public. And those trials are now in question by many. The only data the cdc provides is the vaers reports which are admittedly, by all with a brain , to be incomplete, subjective, and as a whole unusable. I’m asking for data that doesn’t exist. That is the point. To say it’s safe is an opinion and not a fact. With long term studies and data formed we may be able to concede that at some point. But those numbers are not available to the public as we speak. The efficacy of the vaccine is already beginning to seem iffy at best. And to determine the safety of it we need long term data and studies on the side effects and reactions of the vaccine. Once we truly know how many people are dying or suffering serious health consequences, we can cross reference that with the efficacy and determine risk vs reward. Unfortunately none of us can argue or debate our way into that data. So to call it safe is not a proven statement.

 

[qwerksc]

K

It’s been too long - your input has been missed. I often have thought of mentioning you and your exhaustive feedback on the IVM studies touted by the various doctors (and as a result, I take the touted efficacy of same with a heavy dose of salt). You were kind enough to weigh in without calling me a name for asking a question.

It may be that my posts are too blunt and/or poorly worded, as I’ve managed to be lumped in with anti-mask and anti-vax “conspiracy theorists” by questioning one aspect of the government’s handling of the pandemic. At the same time I suspect I’ve pissed everyone else off because I pointed out Peter McCullough and a RS member’s statement about the impossibility of getting Covid twice was based on the mischaracterization of a FOIA response that’s being repeated by others, including on Fox.

I should take my own advice from earlier today and take a break.

This is, actually, a very sane discussion, you have been contributing well and I, for one, enjoy your comments.

 

[fwafwow]

K

This is, actually, a very sane discussion, you have been contributing well and I, for one, enjoy your comments.

You are too kind sir. I’m still reeling from learning that I didn’t need to quit smoking. Again.

 

[Gobbler36]

Can't get more experienced than a part time cardiologist( not an infectious disease expert) and a full time schill that runs a consulting firm specializing in anti vax( a firm that bought 54% of anti vax advertising on Facebook last year yet mandates their employees be vaccinated). Both of these experts have been thoroughly debunked by more qualified doctors and scientists.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Who are you speaking of?

 

[BBob]

Who are you speaking of?

Probably McCullough and Malone but I may be mistaken.

 

[qwerksc]

I hear no mention of Alex Jones, probably where all this “misinformation” data is coming from.

 

[Gobbler36]

all anyone can really go on is there gut and personal experience my wife is now 30 years old and has never been vaccinated her family grew up that way. I don’t know that my wife has ever showed signs of the flew yet every year I’ve gotten it. Our kids have not been vaccinated and other than a snotty nose every now and again have never really been sick. I had covid last year and was around my entire family, wife never batted an eye neither did my kids. When I look at other kids in our family around the same age as ours they have been in the hospital constantly in and out of the Dr, tubes in the ears and the whole ordeal. Vaccinated and flu shot every year yada yada. We have friends that have children like this also. I know it’s all anecdotal and small sample size and whatever, but my family appears to be healthier letting there bodies do what it was designed to do.

That said I’m still not 100% sure if that’s been the right way to go it seems at times each side has a compelling argument and both sides perpetuate information to try and make their point seem like the gospel so I just haven’t done anything till I make my mind up

 

[Marbles]

It’s been too long - your input has been missed. I often have thought of mentioning you and your exhaustive feedback on the IVM studies touted by the various doctors (and as a result, I take the touted efficacy of same with a heavy dose of salt). You were kind enough to weigh in without calling me a name for asking a question.

It may be that my posts are too blunt and/or poorly worded, as I’ve managed to be lumped in with anti-mask and anti-vax “conspiracy theorists” by questioning one aspect of the government’s handling of the pandemic. At the same time I suspect I’ve pissed everyone else off because I pointed out Peter McCullough and a RS member’s statement about the impossibility of getting Covid twice was based on the mischaracterization of a FOIA response that’s being repeated by others, including on Fox.

I should take my own advice from earlier today and take a break.

I enjoy your posts, they represent what discussion should be. It can be hard to balance good discussion when you have people who call anything that does not support their position a lie all while repetitively claiming they just want an honest answer. It tends to lead to us vs them and categorizing people's positions without taking the time to realize that some are nuanced.

I have also reached the point where I'm confident in my position, and the same arguments are being recycled with at best a few details swapped, so I find less value in investing the time required to debate. But, these threads are like an addiction, I keep coming back to them even though I don't really enjoy them and know the time would be better spent doing other things. I even sound like an addict, pontificating on how I need to quite while engaging in the activity.

 

[Gobbler36]

It does strike my as odd that the one side (pharma) that stands to gain the most out of all this, anytime, someone comes out suggesting that they think about not getting vaccinated or that it might not be the best route all they do is slander and try to discredit them and call them conspiracy theorist I think when they do this it make it hard to trust them

 

[PredatorSlayer]

It does strike my as odd that the one side (pharma) that stands to gain the most out of all this, anytime, someone comes out suggesting that they think about not getting vaccinated or that it might not be the best route all they do is slander and try to discredit them and call them conspiracy theorist I think when they do this it make it hard to trust them

I don’t believe it started this way, but early on in this pandemic it became about $$$$. Who cares if the jabs work or not. Have you seen the profits these vaccine companies have generated? Its absurd…go check and see what politicians and gov employees bought stock in those companies. If you ever wondered how career politicians became became multi millions, this is how.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PredatorSlayer]

It does strike my as odd that the one side (pharma) that stands to gain the most out of all this, anytime, someone comes out suggesting that they think about not getting vaccinated or that it might not be the best route all they do is slander and try to discredit them and call them conspiracy theorist I think when they do this it make it hard to trust them

I don’t believe it started this way, but early on in this pandemic it became about $$$$. Who cares if the jabs work or not. Have you seen the profits these vaccine companies have generated? Its absurd…go check and see what politicians and gov employees bought stock in those companies. If you ever wondered how career politicians became became multi millions, this is how.


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[Chucklehead]

The CDC says that the initial Pfizer clinical trial was designed to test the prevention of SARS-CoV-2 infection? What you posted above does not say that.

From the initial EUA review memo for the Pfizer vaccine dated 11/20/20:
"Based on the totality of scientific evidence available, including data from adequate and well-controlled trials described in Section 4 of this review, it is reasonable to believe that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine (BNT162b2) may be effective in preventing such serious or life-threatening disease or condition that can be caused by SARS-CoV-2."

Note that this section references that the vaccine appears effective in preventing "serious or life-threatening disease or condition" and not "infection".

https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download

In looking at the CDC new room, it was not until 3/21 that there was mention of a study that demonstrated the vaccines provided protection from infection. From my perspective, it is not that the goalposts have moved, but the messaging had changed and that caused confusion in many who are not familiar with the relevant terminology. Unfortunately, some of these very people are using the notion of "breakthrough infections" as evidence the vaccines are ineffective when that was only a nice (but temporary) side benefit from their function and not their initial purpose. Hopefully that clarifies things for you.

Thats a hard no from me on that one. The goalpost definitely moved. No one, and I mean no one thought that is all the vaccines did when they came out. When they said 95% effective, what exactly do you think people thought that meant? Almost everyone who I've talked to one on one thought it meant there was a 5% chance of getting a breakthrough case of Covid 19, or they didn't really know what it meant at all.

Lets take a look at pfizers own numbers:
The pfizer phase 3 trial had 43k participants. and they evaluated 170 positive cases out of that group. Eight vaccinated subjects had covid 19, the other 162 were placebo, so 162/170*100=95% That's the number everyone heard. 95% effective.

Again: 170 confirmed positive covid cases evaluated out of 43k participants.
Pfizer Phase 3
Nothing about preventing severe illness, nothing about preventing hospitalization, nothing about preventing death. Only the odds of a positive covid 19 test: Vaxed vs Unvaxed.
The whole trial is about numbers of breakthrough infections. Thats how they calculated the efficacy percentage.

And if you are going to post from that memo,
From 2.3 of that very same Pfizer memo.
"Pfizer, in partnership with BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH, is developing a vaccine to prevent
COVID-19 which is based on the SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein"
6.1. Known Benefits
The known benefits among recipients of the proposed vaccine relative to placebo are:
• Reduction in the risk of confirmed COVID-19 occurring at least 7 days after Dose 2
• Reduction in the risk of confirmed COVID-19 after Dose 1 and before Dose 2
• Reduction in the risk of confirmed severe COVID-19 any time after Dose 1

They were sold as a vaccine that would prevent Covid19. Period.
Not as a vaccine that would prevent you from being hospitalized.
There is no data in the EUAs that suggest their intention was only to prevent hospitalization and death. There is only the implication that it will.

Now if you want to discuss why they are not nearly as effective with delta and omicron as they were with alpha, thats a different conversation.