Pennsylvania Deer Camp

[Tater86]

How have Fulton county deer numbers been? I’ve heard some very negative reports lately.

We ended up with 7 at our camp since the beginning Muzzleloader. Rifle season was slow the first 5-6 days and then we started seeing a good bit. Probably saw about 40-50 in total for one week. Definitely down a good bit from when I started hunting the area but that is what the state is trying to do since we are in the hub for CWD. Last year we had a 40% positive rate on our deer we took. Still waiting for results for this year.

 

[srr5008]

I've been fortunate enough to have been part of a camp for the last 35 years (since I was 4!). Now I am watching my kiddos start to attend and hang out with the old timers that taught me. Doesn't get any better than that!

 

[rtkbowhunter]

The reason we aren’t allowed to shoot bucks during our early muzzleloader season is because the PGC stated that the herd couldn’t handle the additional pressure of bucks being removed with flintlocks before the rut. That effectively ended any talk of an early firearms buck opportunity yet now 25 years later the archery buck harvest is 3 times higher than it was and they continue to expand the season every chance they get.

This is not entirely accurate. Flintlocks were not the problem. The scoped single shot rifles known as in-lines were. When you have a weapon that has extremely reliable ignition and is capable of MOA at two hundred yards, it's no longer a primitive weapon, but the early rifle season you want. As far as the archery buck harvest, it has increased from ~33K in 2009 to ~85K in 2024. The season is roughly the same length. Perhaps it's because we legalized a weapon rifle hunters were already familar with.

 

[CMP70306]

This is not entirely accurate. Flintlocks were not the problem. The scoped single shot rifles known as in-lines were. When you have a weapon that has extremely reliable ignition and is capable of MOA at two hundred yards, it's no longer a primitive weapon, but the early rifle season you want. As far as the archery buck harvest, it has increased from ~33K in 2009 to ~85K in 2024. The season is roughly the same length. Perhaps it's because we legalized a weapon rifle hunters were already familar with.

The original early muzzleloader season was flintlock only, that was when the determination was made not to include bucks. It wasn’t until several years later that inlines were allowed since it was doe only and they wanted more does killed.

When the flintlock was originally introduced they were killing between 20k and 30k does a year, assuming similar harvest ratio to rifle season and you are looking at an estimated 15,000 more bucks per year which was deemed “to high to allow”. Meanwhile the Archery buck harvest has increased by 52,000 since that same timeframe yet when the PGC was allowed to open Sunday hunting the early archery season got every single Sunday opened guaranteeing a significantly higher buck harvest this year with essentially a full week of high impact days.

Meanwhile flintlock, which kills less than 1% of deer, the late antlerless rifle, specifically opened in specific areas to kill more does and the late pheasant season, which has no deer hunting to start and overlaps with flintlock and the late rifle before continuing after they end got zero Sundays.

I’m sure crossbows helped to increase the harvest as well as the media focus on big bucks and hunting the rut and all the other things that have greatly increased participation in archery season.

 

[rtkbowhunter]

The original early muzzleloader season was flintlock only, that was when the determination was made not to include bucks. It wasn’t until several years later that inlines were allowed since it was doe only and they wanted more does killed.

When the flintlock was originally introduced they were killing between 20k and 30k does a year, assuming similar harvest ratio to rifle season and you are looking at an estimated 15,000 more bucks per year which was deemed “to high to allow”. Meanwhile the Archery buck harvest has increased by 52,000 since that same timeframe yet when the PGC was allowed to open Sunday hunting the early archery season got every single Sunday opened guaranteeing a significantly higher buck harvest this year with essentially a full week of high impact days.

Meanwhile flintlock, which kills less than 1% of deer, the late antlerless rifle, specifically opened in specific areas to kill more does and the late pheasant season, which has no deer hunting to start and overlaps with flintlock and the late rifle before continuing after they end got zero Sundays.

I’m sure crossbows helped to increase the harvest as well as the media focus on big bucks and hunting the rut and all the other things that have greatly increased participation in archery season.

Sorry, no. The 3 day early flintlock was implemented in 2000, along with a 3 day youth/senior antlerless hunt. In 2002 the muzzleloader was expanded to a week and included in-lines. There is no way those in early flintlock were killing 20-30K doe. Flintlock harvest never approached those numbers. Those kills were attributed to the youth/senior hunts and post 2002, in-lines.

When Sunday hunting was implemented in 2023, the only Sunday in archery was the last Sunday of archery season. Same in 2024. 2025 was the first year where archers got all Sundays.

You seem to have an axe to grind with bowhunters?

 

[CMP70306]

Sorry, no. The 3 day early flintlock was implemented in 2000, along with a 3 day youth/senior antlerless hunt. In 2002 the muzzleloader was expanded to a week and included in-lines. There is no way those in early flintlock were killing 20-30K doe. Flintlock harvest never approached those numbers. Those kills were attributed to the youth/senior hunts and post 2002, in-lines.

When Sunday hunting was implemented in 2023, the only Sunday in archery was the last Sunday of archery season. Same in 2024. 2025 was the first year where archers got all Sundays.

You seem to have an axe to grind with bowhunters?

2000 got flintlock, 2001 added juniors and by 2004 inlines were legal when I started hunting, didn’t know the exact year.


Here are the harvest numbers right from the PGC either from their reports directly or from older articles citing the numbers from their reports.


Not bowhunters but the PGCs favoritism regarding the season. For the first Sundays in 2023 & 2024 by law the PGC had 3 days, two of which were legally required to be in bear and rifle seasons respectively. They chose to make it the last Sunday in archery to keep the three in a row which makes sense.

In 2025 however they got the opportunity to authorize as many Sundays as they wished and they put 9 of the 10 in archery season with the first 2 being for elk and the 3rd for the SRA which have either 13 hunters or a 4 months season respectively. Then based on their comments the reason was because they were concerned about over harvesting the deer which doesn’t really make sense since they basically doubled the high impact days in one of the most heavily hunted seasons while failing to add time to the late season which either doesn’t have deer hunting, is a minimal impact season like flintlock or is only open in a place where the PGC deemed there to be too many deer.

Not to mention they left out the late pheasant season which they are actively paying to stock birds and the early part of which doesn’t overlap with the late rifle season they are so concerned about. So in that regard I’m annoyed that they were finally given the ability to regulate Sunday hunting like they have been wanting for years only for one group to get the entire benefit while the majority of the seasons I enjoy to be ignored for bullshit reasons.

 

[Mr. October]

Given that the harvest reporting system asks for exactly what type of weapon (crossbow, compound bow, etc.) a harvest was made with, it is curious that the PGC doesn't further break down the archery kill by weapon type. Since 68% of archery hunters use crossbows, I'm assuming they don't want to be divisive. I think it is safe to say there would be far less deer taken in archery if crossbows weren't legal.

Not trying to sound anti-crossbow. Just stating the facts. People can hunt with whatever they want as long as it's legal.

Anyone else remember when the PGC authorized atlatls for deer hunting? People acted like there was going to be some significant impact on the deer kill.

 

[CMP70306]

Given that the harvest reporting system asks for exactly what type of weapon (crossbow, compound bow, etc.) a harvest was made with, it is curious that the PGC doesn't further break down the archery kill by weapon type. Since 68% of archery hunters use crossbows, I'm assuming they don't want to be divisive. I think it is safe to say there would be far less deer taken in archery if crossbows weren't legal.

Not trying to sound anti-crossbow. Just stating the facts. People can hunt with whatever they want as long as it's legal.

Anyone else remember when the PGC authorized atlatls for deer hunting? People acted like there was going to be some significant impact on the deer kill.

That’s one thing I’ve been curious of is how much of the increase is due to crossbows and how much is due to the increased interest in hunting bucks during the rut?

 

[Mr. October]

That’s one thing I’ve been curious of is how much of the increase is due to crossbows and how much is due to the increased interest in hunting bucks during the rut?

I think it is one and the same. Bowhunters have ALWAYS been interested in hunting bucks during the rut. I was around when we fought to get archery season extended into November. A lot of rifle hunters were up in arms about because "bowhunters would kill all the bucks". You can bet tons of people that were opposed now hunt in November with a crossbow.

 

[rtkbowhunter]

That’s one thing I’ve been curious of is how much of the increase is due to crossbows and how much is due to the increased interest in hunting bucks during the rut?

Number of buck killed in 2009 archery - ~33K

Number of buck killed in 2024 archery - ~87K

Number of bowhunters in 2009 - ~260K (year xbows were legalized)

Number of bowhunters in 2024 - ~350K

Percent of bowhunters using xbow - almost 70%

We gained an almost 40% increase in bowhunters not because of the challenge, but the ease.

 

[CMP70306]

Number of buck killed in 2009 archery - ~33K

Number of buck killed in 2024 archery - ~87K

Number of bowhunters in 2009 - ~260K (year xbows were legalized)

Number of bowhunters in 2024 - ~350K

Percent of bowhunters using xbow - almost 70%

We gained an almost 40% increase in bowhunters not because of the challenge, but the ease.

But that isn’t the entire story, over that same time period there was a huge push for archery in both media and the industry as a whole. Many western states have seen major increases in Archery hunters despite the fact that crossbows are almost universally locked out of archery season in those states.

For example South Dakota does not allow the use of crossbows during archery season and from 2015 to 2024 their archery tag sales increased by almost 30%. Crossbows definitely attracted some to start archery hunting but that increase isn’t 100% due to crossbows and I’d venture a significant portion is simply due to the increased interest in archery as a whole.

Not to mention a large number of senior hunters use crossbows yet aren’t reflected in the archery numbers due to their use of the senior combo license.

https://gfp.sd.gov/images/Harvest_Reports/ARCHERY%20DEER.pdf

 

[Mr. October]

But that isn’t the entire story, over that same time period there was a huge push for archery in both media and the industry as a whole. Many western states have seen major increases in Archery hunters despite the fact that crossbows are almost universally locked out of archery season in those states.

For example South Dakota does not allow the use of crossbows during archery season and from 2015 to 2024 their archery tag sales increased by almost 30%. Crossbows definitely attracted some to start archery hunting but that increase isn’t 100% due to crossbows and I’d venture a significant portion is simply due to the increased interest in archery as a whole.

Not to mention a large number of senior hunters use crossbows yet aren’t reflected in the archery numbers due to their use of the senior combo license.

https://gfp.sd.gov/images/Harvest_Reports/ARCHERY%20DEER.pdf

I don't think the push for archery has been nearly as much a factor as crossbow introduction. If it were you wouldn't see the huge numbers of crossbow hunters but rather people shooting vertical bows. I'm not opposed to crossbows. I own one. Barely use it but I own one. It is NOT the same things as shooting a vertical bow. If people are looking for the archery hunting experience they aren't really getting it with a crossbow and probably wouldn't have purchased an archery license had they not been able to go with a crossbow.

That said, I'm sure we picked up a few hunters on the attraction of archery but certainly not 90,000 hunters.

 

[rtkbowhunter]

I don't think the push for archery has been nearly as much a factor as crossbow introduction. If it were you wouldn't see the huge numbers of crossbow hunters but rather people shooting vertical bows. I'm not opposed to crossbows. I own one. Barely use it but I own one. It is NOT the same things as shooting a vertical bow. If people are looking for the archery hunting experience they aren't really getting it with a crossbow and probably wouldn't have purchased an archery license had they not been able to go with a crossbow.

That said, I'm sure we picked up a few hunters on the attraction of archery but certainly not 90,000 hunters.

The numbers don't lie. We had ~325K bowhunters back in the 90's. From 1999 to 2009 we averaged ~250K-ish bowhunters. Look at the PGC dashboard. The numbers climbed significantly each each year after xbows were legalized in 2009. Rest assured the 90K we gained was because of xbows.

 

[CMP70306]

I don't think the push for archery has been nearly as much a factor as crossbow introduction. If it were you wouldn't see the huge numbers of crossbow hunters but rather people shooting vertical bows. I'm not opposed to crossbows. I own one. Barely use it but I own one. It is NOT the same things as shooting a vertical bow. If people are looking for the archery hunting experience they aren't really getting it with a crossbow and probably wouldn't have purchased an archery license had they not been able to go with a crossbow.

That said, I'm sure we picked up a few hunters on the attraction of archery but certainly not 90,000 hunters.

On the flip side how many people archery hunt purely for the love of archery vs the extra 7+ weeks of hunting season? I started bow hunting at 14 with an old whitetail hunter compound not because I loved bow hunting but because it was the only way for me to hunt deer outside of the 3 day JR season in October or the rifle season at the end of November.

There is a reason the south has a way lower archery harvest than the rest of the country, if you can use rifles for most of the season the only people bow hunting are those that truly like bow hunting. You don’t get the people that just want to hunt more and have to pick up a bow to do so.

The numbers don't lie. We had ~325K bowhunters back in the 90's. From 1999 to 2009 we averaged ~250K-ish bowhunters. Look at the PGC dashboard. The numbers climbed significantly each each year after xbows were legalized in 2009. Rest assured the 90K we gained was because of xbows.

Then how do you explain South Dakota’s 30% increase in the same time period when crossbows are limited to rifle season only?

 

[Blowdowner]

the county let a local sluice gate fail. Our property got inundated with brackish water and it killed 90% of the trees.

Hmmm...Let...hmmm... What was your compensation? Can you turn it into a duck hunting spot?

 

[rtkbowhunter]

On the flip side how many people archery hunt purely for the love of archery vs the extra 7+ weeks of hunting season? I started bow hunting at 14 with an old whitetail hunter compound not because I loved bow hunting but because it was the only way for me to hunt deer outside of the 3 day JR season in October or the rifle season at the end of November.

There is a reason the south has a way lower archery harvest than the rest of the country, if you can use rifles for most of the season the only people bow hunting are those that truly like bow hunting. You don’t get the people that just want to hunt more and have to pick up a bow to do so.


Then how do you explain South Dakota’s 30% increase in the same time period when crossbows are limited to rifle season only?

I can't speak to SD's ~60K bowhunters and any increase. I can however speak to PA's and the trends after xbows were legalized. The number of PA bowhunters was fairly flat to decreasing from the mid 90's to 2009. We did hit a peak after we gained the ability to hunt the rut (picked up two weeks in Nov) in 1993. The fact is the increase in bowhunters started the same year xbows were legalized. The data, especially harvest data, is quite clear. And just for full transparency, I am opposed to xbows in archery season, unless you have a physical disability that prevents shooting a vertical bow.

 

[Mr. October]

Hmmm...Let...hmmm... What was your compensation? Can you turn it into a duck hunting spot?

Nothing. And it WAS a good duck hunting spot. With all the erosion caused by the high water, now that the sluice has been repaired, you can't even float a duck decoy.

 

[Yoder]

I don't think harvest numbers went up, just because of crossbows. I think it's also trail cams, cell cams, Onx style GPS mapping, limitless experience on YouTube. For someone who never hunted, you can watch YouTube and gain a ton of knowledge. Put out cell cams and figure things out pretty quick. Compound bow technology has also come a long way. I think the jump from a Trad bow to a modern compound all decked out with the latest sight, stabilizers and release is a bigger jump in technology, than going from a modern compound to a crossbow.

 

[rtkbowhunter]

I don't think harvest numbers went up, just because of crossbows. I think it's also trail cams, cell cams, Onx style GPS mapping, limitless experience on YouTube. For someone who never hunted, you can watch YouTube and gain a ton of knowledge. Put out cell cams and figure things out pretty quick. Compound bow technology has also come a long way. I think the jump from a Trad bow to a modern compound all decked out with the latest sight, stabilizers and release is a bigger jump in technology, than going from a modern compound to a crossbow.

I think xbows are responsible for the vast majority of the increase. OnX, Gaia and other mapping software is just a digital copy of what we did for years on topo maps. Mark them up, look for terrain features, overlay with aerial photos... I have killed plenty of deer prior to having Gaia, just by picking terrain features on a map and going in. 1st or 2nd hunt... As far as learning, social media like Youtube, FB, etc videos, are the last place I would look to learn abouy bowhunting.

The jump from compound to xbow is less than stick to compound....

Remember the last time you nestled the stock of your compound against your shoulder. Fingers wrapped around the pistol grip. Forestock securely clamped in a tripod. Peer thru the 4x scope with lighted reticle and range preset from built in range finder. Flip the safety off. Send a razor tipped arrow towards a deer. 80 yards away.

Ya, me neither.

 

[Yoder]

I think xbows are responsible for the vast majority of the increase. OnX, Gaia and other mapping software is just a digital copy of what we did for years on topo maps. Mark them up, look for terrain features, overlay with aerial photos... I have killed plenty of deer prior to having Gaia, just by picking terrain features on a map and going in. 1st or 2nd hunt... As far as learning, social media like Youtube, FB, etc videos, are the last place I would look to learn abouy bowhunting.

The jump from compound to xbow is less than stick to compound....

Remember the last time you nestled the stock of your compound against your shoulder. Fingers wrapped around the pistol grip. Forestock securely clamped in a tripod. Peer thru the 4x scope with lighted reticle and range preset from built in range finder. Flip the safety off. Send a razor tipped arrow towards a deer. 80 yards away.

Ya, me neither.

Remember looking at your auto ranging illuminated optic, bow completely steady from the front and rear stabilizers, slowly pulling the trigger of your release. Just like shooting a stick bow instinctively without fingers.

There are some outstanding hunters on YouTube. Dan Infalt comes to mind. I am a way better hunter from watching him.

Your old paper topo map doesn't show you real time, where you are, the rub line you marked or the five years of data you plotted on it. It's a huge advantage.

I used a crossbow for the last three years. I tore my shoulder and couldn't pull my bow anymore. I killed 4 deer with it. None of the shots were anything I couldn't have made with my regular bow. Offhand, I can't group as good with the crossbow as I can with my regular bow. It's an advantage, but it's not a rifle.