Painless load development (mine)

[ResearchinStuff]

Are people trimming cases when they get longer, or are y’all ditching the brass before that happens?

if you need to trim you need to trim, excessive case lenght is a safety issue. I've had situations where cases needed trimmed basically every firing, and others where trimming was not necessary at all.

knowing if you need to trim can be a bit tricky. Sinclair makes a gauge that tell you how long the neck can get before you need to trim. Or, you can play it safe and keep things in between the max and trim to lengths, which costs nothing but time.

 

[sveltri]

Are people trimming cases when they get longer, or are y’all ditching the brass before that happens?

I just started having to trim my 223 brass after 3 firings. I'll just check it after its sized from here on out and trim when I need to.

 

[Juan_ID]

Or, you can play it safe and keep things in between the max and trim to lengths, which costs nothing but time.

This is pretty much my strategy, most of the time it can go more than 3 firings before I “should/need” to trim but cuz I’m used to it and it’s part of my process at this point I just do it once they are closer to the max than the min.

 

[StopMakingSense]

I measure a a few quick to make sure they aren’t out of spec after full length sizing. If they are I’ll trim them all down a bit to put them back in spec.

 

[Pdog06]

The Wilson case gauge is very helpful and quick to determine if trimming is needed now or very soon. It allows you to check every pc of brass quickly instead of doing just a few.

 

[Spoke'n'fly]

I'm on board with this loading protocol. I've been doing basically the same thing, but stopped short of the velocity trueing. @Formidilosus My question is, when shooting bullets with less proven BCs, do you still adjust ONLY the velocity when trueing? How does an relatively unknown BC change the process?

 

[TimberHunter]

The Wilson case gauge is very helpful and quick to determine if trimming is needed now or very soon. It allows you to check every pc of brass quickly instead of doing just a few.

Right or wrong I just trim my 6.5cm (only rifle I load for right now) each time I reload. Probably does no good/bad but I just try to be consistent on everything I do when it comes to reloading. I use a cordless drill to trim so it goes quick


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shortschaf]

I'm on board with this loading protocol. I've been doing basically the same thing, but stopped short of the velocity trueing. My question is, when shooting bullets with less proven BCs, do you still adjust ONLY the velocity when trueing? How does an relatively unknown BC change the process?

I have found Applied Ballistic's bullet library to be an invaluable resource for "actual" BC.

They test bullet BC with live fire. And then they update their library accordingly.

For example, the 140 ELDM in their library lists a G7 BC of 0.296
While Hornady claims the BC is 0.326

That library is spot on with everything I've done, and the $30 app is well worth it given the amount of long range headaches it avoids

 

[ljalberta]

I have found Applied Ballistic's bullet library to be an invaluable resource for "actual" BC.

They test bullet BC with live fire. And then they update their library accordingly.

For example, the 140 ELDM in their library lists a G7 BC of 0.296
While Hornady claims the BC is 0.326

That library is spot on with everything I've done, and the $30 app is well worth it given the amount of long range headaches it avoids

Have you compared against Kestrel’s listed BCs at all?

 

[huntnful]

I have found Applied Ballistic's bullet library to be an invaluable resource for "actual" BC.

They test bullet BC with live fire. And then they update their library accordingly.

For example, the 140 ELDM in their library lists a G7 BC of 0.296
While Hornady claims the BC is 0.326

That library is spot on with everything I've done, and the $30 app is well worth it given the amount of long range headaches it avoids

Does the app have all of their tested bullet BC’s?

 

[Shortschaf]

Have you compared against Kestrel’s listed BCs at all?

Not sure I understand your question. But the Applied Ballistic app's ballistic library appears to be identical to the Kestrel's ballistic library. Applied Ballistics is in most Kestrals, so it would make sense that they're the same library. FWIW I never use the Kestral app because the AB app is easier to use.

Does the app have all of their tested bullet BC’s?

Are you asking if all of the bullets in the library are tested? If so, I'm not sure. I doubt it. But they are adding bullets to the library all the time.

What I DO KNOW is that every bullet I've made a profile for has a different BC in the app than the one on the box. And I NEVER mess with my BC anymore. I cannot say that EVERY bullet in their library has been field tested. Highly used commodities like Hornadys and Bergers are generally the first to get tested. Rarer bullets like solid coppers are less so. At least that's my understanding listening to Bryan Litz on various podcasts.

I played around with a few random projectiles because of your question, and virtually every single BC is different than the box value. Even the venerable Berger 140 hybrid. I will say that this exercise was eye opening even for me, as an app user for several years. Seeing this, I am all the more appreciative of the work they do at Applied Ballistics.

 

[Ozarkansas]

I wish I’d known about this protocol when I first started loading for my swede, I ended up burning through 50 rounds per bullet doing 3 shot groups just trying to find pressure signs.
Now I just start with book max and very quickly move up from there (not recommended for modern cartridges but most 6.5x55 load data is extremely conservative if you’re shooting out of a modern rifle, or trying to kiss the lands with match bullets) using single rounds at each step in my ladder to check for pressure and velocity.

For developing my 18” .243 loads I’ll probably follow Form’s protocol exactly, except for the long range portion, since I don’t have access to that kind of range

 

[Marbles]

if you need to trim you need to trim, excessive case lenght is a safety issue. I've had situations where cases needed trimmed basically every firing, and others where trimming was not necessary at all.

knowing if you need to trim can be a bit tricky. Sinclair makes a gauge that tell you how long the neck can get before you need to trim. Or, you can play it safe and keep things in between the max and trim to lengths, which costs nothing but time.

Lyman makes a headspace and case length gauge that looks quick and easy. I'm going to give it a try. https://www.lymanproducts.com/rifle-headspace-gauges

I had 40 pieces of once fired brass. Measured 10 and none where long, decided to measure one more, then just load them. That number 11 was long, 14 of the 30 I was not going to measure turned out to be over length.

It was sig brass. 148 pieces of once fired Starline and none where over length.

I'm not going to trim every time, and will not spend the money on a fancy trimmer, but picked up a Lyman E-ZEE trimmer to avoid throwing out brass. I have more time than money at the moment.

 

[Formidilosus]

Forgot to put this here…

6UM with 115gr DTAC load is 66gr of N570, so went 67gr for the 106gr and loaded ten with the boattail seated to the neck/shoulder junction for a COAL of 2.88”.

​

Trued out at 960 yards with 5 rounds at 3,310fps MV, and those five went into around 12”


Note: there was no load work up done. Just went up 1gr from the 115gr load and seated to correct depth. Higher MV is possible. Just needed them to shoot decent and true to kill elk.


1st shot after trueing. 782 yards.

Load work up is hard.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Lyman makes a headspace and case length gauge that looks quick and easy. I'm going to give it a try. https://www.lymanproducts.com/rifle-headspace-gauges

I had 40 pieces of once fired brass. Measured 10 and none where long, decided to measure one more, then just load them. That number 11 was long, 14 of the 30 I was not going to measure turned out to be over length.

It was sig brass. 148 pieces of once fired Starline and none where over length.

I'm not going to trim every time, and will not spend the money on a fancy trimmer, but picked up a Lyman E-ZEE trimmer to avoid throwing out brass. I have more time than money at the moment.

Measuring cases is easy. Knowing how long they cut the neck in your chamber, which is what really determines if you need to trim yet, requires a more specialized approach. Not mixing brands of brass will make your loading simpler.

 

[jfk69]

Forgot to put this here…

6UM with 115gr DTAC load is 66gr of N570, so went 67gr for the 106gr and loaded ten with the boattail seated to the neck/shoulder junction for a COAL of 2.88”.

​

Trued out at 960 yards with 5 rounds at 3,310fps MV, and those five went into around 12”


Note: there was no load work up done. Just went up 1gr from the 115gr load and seated to correct depth. Higher MV is possible. Just needed them to shoot decent and true to kill elk.


1st shot after trueing. 782 yards.

Load work up is hard.

Good Lord, I can’t even imagine the throat/barrel life on that beast lol!

 

[Andouille]

Measuring cases is easy. Knowing how long they cut the neck in your chamber, which is what really determines if you need to trim yet, requires a more specialized approach. Not mixing brands of brass will make your loading simpler.

Something seems more complicated that I what I understand as a reloading newbie. Wouldn't one use a comparator to measure how much to resize the fired case length; resize (full length for me), bumping back the shoulder ~0.002 to give clearance in the chamber; then trim if necessary to not exceed SAMMI length? Is there a need for the average reloader to worry about chamber neck length?

Getting this back on topic regarding load development, how does one judge how much powder to add/drop when changing a bullet weight (but remaining with the same bullet type) as Form did above? is 1 gr based on experience or a rule of thumb? I imagine that the powder drop/add for a 300 win mag cartridge would be proportionally larger (i.e., 1.5 gr) based on the powder volume.

 

[wind gypsy]

Something seems more complicated that I what I understand as a reloading newbie. Wouldn't one use a comparator to measure how much to resize the fired case; resize (full length for me), bumping back the shoulder ~0.002 to give clearance in the chamber; then trim if necessary to not exceed SAMMI length? Is there a need for the average reloader to worry about chamber neck length?

Not really, just keep em below saami length. There's likely some little benefits in relation to carbon fouling by not having a huge gap between case mouth and the chamber throat but thats another rabbit hole. Don't trim them short AF and roll on.

Getting this back on topic regarding load development, how does one judge how much powder to add/drop when changing a bullet weight (but remaining with the same bullet type) as Form did above? is 1 gr based on experience or a rule of thumb?

You kind of need to have a feel for how fast a bullet builds pressure. Weight alone doesn't tell the whole story. I'm gonna guess Form has shot enough ELDs and DTACs to have a general feel for how fast they build pressure and thus had reason to think an additional grain would be in the ballpark of what he wanted.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Wouldn't one use a comparator to measure how much to resize the fired case length; resize (full length for me), bumping back the shoulder ~0.002 to give clearance in the chamber; then trim if necessary to not exceed SAMMI length? Is there a need for the average reloader to worry about chamber neck length?

no, a comparator tells you the distance from the shoulder datum to the base, that measurement is used to control the work you do on the brass with the shoulder bump. You can load safely without a comparator at all - if you're not bumping the shoulder back enough the shell just won't chamber.

case length is controlled because at the end of your chamber neck the diameter gets smaller. If your case neck extends out in this area, it cannot open to allow the bullet to move as easily, and pressure jumps dramatically, creating an unsafe condition. If your case length is always shorter than the max case length, SAAMI specs pretty much guaranteed that you'll never hit the unsafe condition.

However, staying below the max allowable case length takes some attention in the form of measuring and trimming when needed (to the trim-to length). If you want to have a reloading process that never involves trimming, cases still need to be monitored for overall length, and trashed when they get too long. Some case designs (i.e ackley/PRC/creedmoor) cases grow much, much slower than other designs with significant body taper and shallow shoulders.

The sinclair chamber gauge is useful for measuring how far beyond the max case length measurement in the reloading manual you can go before you hit the end of the chamber and experience the pressure spike. Knowing this distance allows you to wait longer before trimming, and in some cases may allow you to use the case until it fails in some other way (loss, primer pocket loosening) without ever needing to trim. It's not a necessary tool.

Personally, I have a frankford arsenal power trimmer and put every shell through it just to make sure there's not a long one hiding. costs about 2 seconds per shell, and doesn't really add a step since I chamfer and debur on the same machine every firing anyhow.

 

[Andouille]

The sinclair chamber gauge is useful for measuring how far beyond the max case length measurement in the reloading manual you can go before you hit the end of the chamber and experience the pressure spike...

Personally, I have a frankford arsenal power trimmer and put every shell through it just to make sure there's not a long one hiding. costs about 2 seconds per shell, and doesn't really add a step since I chamfer and debur on the same machine every firing anyhow.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I'm all about measuring every aspect of my chamber and brass as I start reloading, then figuring out what works with minimal measuring in the long run. For $13 shipped a Sinclair chamber gauge is a small investment and works for my 30-06, 300 WSM, and 300 WM reloading. And I have WFT-style trimmers specific to my cartridges which makes doing a quick trim check as you do easy as WFT trimmer works off the shoulder datum.

One thing that is not discusses much (or I've missed it in this thread) is the effect of the reload consistency on the results of this test method. Many of the load results discussed are from very experienced shooters, so it will be interesting to what results I can achieve as a new reloader using this method.

I will test Form's method using inexpensive Hornady 150 gr SP bullets (free with my dies) and once-fired, FL resized, and trimmed (if necessary) brass for my 30-06 X-bolt 30-06 and 300 WSM and 300 WM Tikkas, starting with H4350 which has published loads for all three calibers. Bullets will be seated at load book recommended depths. I also have Staball 6.5, and Superformance powders, though these may be less optimal based on a lack of load data for the bullets and aforementioned calibers. Other bullets on hand that I will eventually test for hunting are 150 CX, 175 LRX, 172 and 190gr Speer Impact, and 200 gr TSX BT just for "big bullet" giggles (low BC and slow for a mono). I'll post results here, whether they are good or bad.