Painless load development (mine)

[bpotter]

Was shown this a long time ago but don't remember where. Only done this with 7mm and 308s.

Shoot 20 or so cheap factory rounds to settle things in and zero.

Pick bullet

Pick powder with good fill % and velocity

Load 3 at 0.5 grain increments from mid-book to max book. Shoot round robin. Stop if you see any pressure signs.

Look for charge with smallest velocity SD. Will often be smallest group. Variability will usually increase and then shrink and then grow as you approach pressure. At least it does in my experience.

Load at .2 grain increments around that most consistent charge to see how consistent.

Pick your load load and shoot at distances to check accuracy and drops.

I am not that proficient at this game but this method seems to be stress free if you are not focused on group size. Not that different than Mr. Forms with just a wee bit more trigger time.





Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[HighUintas]

It gives me a really good reason to sell my $400 scale and go back to my cheapo Lyman pocket scale

 

[OXN939]

Either the rifle and load shoots or it doesn’t.

Owe ya a beer for this. If a rifle "likes" a load, you can tell from the kind of single group you mention. If you get a 3 MOA group, dropping your charge weight by .3 grains isn't going to change anything- you need to completely switch at least one of your components. Not sure how many rounds I wasted doing reloading ladders like virtually the entire internet tells you to do when I started.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I don’t really pay attention to velocity ES or SD. If it groups well at 100 and it groups well at distance- whatever distance that is, than it really doesn’t matter with the ES/SD is.

That’s just denying science, isn‘t it? You are shooting an accurate 100 yd load with 5 different drops at 1000 yds. Won’t just the drop variation take the group to 20+ inches?

 

[HighUintas]

@Formidilosus , do you ever anneal your brass or do you just shoot it a few times and toss them?

 

[sveltri]

Look for charge with smallest velocity SD. Will often be smallest group. Variability will usually increase and then shrink and then grow as you approach pressure. At least it does in my experience.

Not arguing that you get these kind of results, but that is not usually the result I get. More often than not my best groups typically come from my worst velocity differences. It always kinda makes me laugh.

 

[Lawnboi]

Same^


ES of 60 on this group. Things got interesting after 5 firings on my match rifle brass before my annealer arrived. 5 shots in there. .264 bore.

I promise this is the only cherry picked group I post all day.

 

[nksmfamjp]

These are good short cuts, but only that. 1.5” groups are caused by some mismatch in my experience. …like barrel to bullet

Ive developed off bad initial groups, but it never becomes great, just acceptable.

if you can put 25 downrange through fired brass after 100 rounds, you will know if it is close…..well, maybe 15.

you can also run with an undeveloped load. They can be quite good

 

[yycyak]

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the point is that if you're MOA at 100m, you'll be MOA at 1000m.

MOA is MOA. Ignore the "noise" and what-abouts.

That’s just denying science, isn‘t it? You are shooting an accurate 100 yd load with 5 different drops at 1000 yds. Won’t just the drop variation take the group to 20+ inches?

 

[HighUintas]

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the point is that if you're MOA at 100m, you'll be MOA at 1000m.

MOA is MOA. Ignore the "noise" and what-abouts.

If you ignore air friction and have a 1/2" group at 100 but an ES of 18,000mph between 2 shots, one shot will orbit the earth while the other hits your poa at 1000

 

[dashender7]

"But........what if I can change things up and get that .72 moa down to half that?"

That's where I always end up........with every hobby. It's also like elk hunting........"well, this spot looks great.......but what's over that next ridge"?

This is me too.

 

[yycyak]

Are you... me... circa 2019 and prior? I'm having flashbacks....

God I sure do not miss that nonsense. I wasted so much money and so much time chasing stuff that plain simply is not a factor.

The reality is I'm not a good enough shooter to notice 0.3 grain powder variations. I miss because I'm a shitty shot. Full Stop. Throw in field conditions and shooting off not-a-bench and, well...

I'm humble enough to know that I am the weak-link in all of this. 0.3 of a grain doesn't change that. ES doesn't change that. Attempting to shoot the challenge here really messed with a lot of preconceptions I had, and got me off the Ballistics Masturbation train.

If you ignore air friction and have a 1/2" group at 100 but an ES of 18,000mph between 2 shots, one shot will orbit the earth while the other hits your poa at 1000

 

[HighUintas]

Are you... me... circa 2019 and prior? I'm having flashbacks....

God I sure do not miss that nonsense. I wasted so much money and so much time chasing stuff that plain simply is not a factor.

The reality is I'm not a good enough shooter to notice 0.3 grain powder variations. I miss because I'm a shitty shot. Full Stop. Throw in field conditions and shooting off not-a-bench and, well...

I'm humble enough to know that I am the weak-link in all of this. 0.3 of a grain doesn't change that. ES doesn't change that. Attempting to shoot the challenge here really messed with a lot of preconceptions I had, and got me off the Ballistics Masturbation train.

Haha no. I like measuring speeds because I enjoy screwing with the numbers. I won't ever shoot at game passed 4-500 so spreads don't make a real difference to me.

I was just trying to make a point that if you're shooting a long way out there, spreads will matter at some point.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the point is that if you're MOA at 100m, you'll be MOA at 1000m.

MOA is MOA. Ignore the "noise" and what-abouts.

…..but doesn’t variation in drop make you worse than at at 100 yds? IME, 100 YD groups are determined by variation in bullet flight

 

[mattwill00]

What’s the consensus on velocity “flat spots” anyways? Anyone schooled up in stats knows that 1-3 rounds at each charge isn’t a very good sample size. The guys that only shoot one round per charge and call it a flat spot kind of baffle me.

There’s a really good thread over on snipershide about it. Good debate and a great read for anyone scratching their heads at the process. Granted I feel like a lighter profile barrel might throw things off a bit but I don’t know if I 100% buy into the flat spot theory.

don’t know if I can link over to other sites but it’s pretty easy to throw in the old google.

 

[dashender7]

If you ignore air friction and have a 1/2" group at 100 but an ES of 18,000mph between 2 shots, one shot will orbit the earth while the other hits your poa at 1000

This post paints the picture well.

 

[tdot]

@Formidilosus thanks for the summary. It's a refreshing look at reloading.

2 questions. You stated that this rifle only needed to be accurate within 1.0 to 1.1 MOA. How do you decide on that requirement?

How do you decide on a Ballistic Coefficient? Especially considering most manufacturers are known to inflate their numbers. Why do you choose to keep BC static and then adjust velocity. If I have a decent chrono and can obtain reasonably reliable data from that, why wouldn't you adjust BC... which in my head seems like a greater unknown as so many things can affect BC.

 

[woods89]

What’s the consensus on velocity “flat spots” anyways? Anyone schooled up in stats knows that 1-3 rounds at each charge isn’t a very good sample size. The guys that only shoot one round per cha and call it a flat spot kind of baffle me.

There’s a really good thread over on snipershide about it. Good debate and a great read for anyone scratching their heads at the process. Granted I feel like a lighter profile barrel might throw things off a bit but I don’t know if I 100% buy into the flat spot theory.

don’t know if I can link over to other sites but it’s pretty easy to throw in the old google.

I've followed that thread as well, and found it interesting.

 

[Formidilosus]

That’s just denying science, isn‘t it? You are shooting an accurate 100 yd load with 5 different drops at 1000 yds. Won’t just the drop variation take the group to 20+ inches?

Are we talking actual “science”, or we talking “The Science “?

Yes, velocity variation has an effect. However, if your high round count groups (10+) are acceptable size at whatever your distance is, why does it matter what your SD/ES is? In other words if you are grouping at distance, than the grouping is taking care of the variation. If you’re doing endless load playing at 100 yards, you’re just hoping that small SD/ES translates to small groups at range.

To that point though, all guns that I can remember that have grouped well for high round counts at 100, have done so at 300, which have done so at 800.

@Formidilosus , do you ever anneal your brass or do you just shoot it a few times and toss them?

Not really. By the time annealing comes in, the barrels shot out or the brass is lost. 3-4 firings and I’m generally done with it for whatever reason. I don’t get into the psycho brass hording thing either

Haha no. I like measuring speeds because I enjoy screwing with the numbers. I won't ever shoot at game passed 4-500 so spreads don't make a real difference to me.

I was just trying to make a point that if you're shooting a long way out there, spreads will matter at some point.

Sure they will, but not like a lot of people believe. We miss due to the largest source of error. Or I should say our hit rate is determined by the largest sources of error. Rarely (almost never?) is that velocity ES outside of a benchrest. Dudes aren’t missing due to an ES of 30 versus an ES of 10. They’re missing due to not calling wind correctly, flinching, incorrect zero, loss of zero, optic not tracking, poor positional shooting ability, etc, etc.

What’s the consensus on velocity “flat spots” anyways? Anyone schooled up in stats knows that 1-3 rounds at each charge isn’t a very good sample size. The guys that only shoot one round per charge and call it a flat spot kind of baffle me.

From what I’ve seen it can be real, but people are kidding themselves by doing so with one round. It’s the same BS about getting velocity SD or ES off of 5-10 rounds. That’s just a joke.

@Formidilosus thanks for the summary. It's a refreshing look at reloading.

2 questions. You stated that this rifle only needed to be accurate within 1.0 to 1.1 MOA. How do you decide on that requirement?

Hit rate for the task. The target is deer sized game out to 800m. So a 12” target at 800m. That is calculated with Applied Ballistics WEZ. Putting all variables in, reducing groups size below that has a very marginal effect on hit rate in the field, but a very large time and component cost.

How do you decide on a Ballistic Coefficient? Especially considering most manufacturers are known to inflate their numbers.

There’s enough work for correct BC numbers now that if AB, Hornady, etc. put it out then it’s very close generally and closer than one can measure just by shooting.

Why do you choose to keep BC static and then adjust velocity. If I have a decent chrono and can obtain reasonably reliable data from that, why wouldn't you adjust BC... which in my head seems like a greater unknown as so many things can affect BC.

How are you sure your velocity is completely correct? I would not trust a chrono average with less than 30 shots back to back. How do you know your adjustments are tracking at exactly .1 Mil or .25 moa for the entire range you use it at? Do you know that the scope does so with live rounds through recoil instead of just static texting? How do you know that you don’t have a slight updraft or down draft on the way to the target?

Point being that it takes relatively large variations in BC to make considerable changes to elevation inside of terminal ranges (1,800’ish FPS for an average), yet relatively little MV error to create the same elevation change. Biggest spruce of error= MV, not BC for any good bullet. Now if you’re shooting bullets with widely inflated BC’s (looking at you Hammer), then yeah, everything is kind of a guess. But much like shooting Tikka/Sako, I skip all the nonsense and drama by shooting bullets that are known performers.

Even with all that, the base reason I generally adjust MV and not BC is because it works. I have zero issues zeroing, trueing at distance, and then going anywhere in the country and getting first round, elevation correct impacts doing so, without ever chronoing the gun/ammo. I’m not into the dork crap- the gun is a means to an end, not the end, and I want the path that gets me to that end the quickest and surest.

 

[HighUintas]

@Formidilosus , since you're not big on granular details in the loading process, do you just use a thrower for powder charges?