NRL realism

[khuber84]

I understand where the 16 pound limit came from (Idaho), but it still seems excessive and the amount of hunters actual lugging a 16 pound rifle is probably minimal. What I would wish is the rifle weight somehow factored into score as the scenarios NRL attempts to recreate are more akin to a hunt yould have to hike and would factor in rifle weight.

Set 12 pounds as the benchmark (seems fair with a bipod attached), but have a points multiplier or detractor based on weight. Spitballing here, but say every pound below 12 pounds increases your score by 5% and every pound over 12 decreases your score by 5%. A guy shooting a 16 pound rifle would only get 80% of the score, while someone shooting an 8 pound rifle would get 120%.

You'd have to do the same with power factor, as the recoil is higher and harder to shoot.

Here's the deal, hits are hits, first rounds worth 2x the points. I think 12# is a very practical number. It's not as easy as ya think!

 

[Carl Ross]

Is NRL Hunter perfect for testing all around western hunting/shooting skills? No.

If you go from "box of ammo a year guy" to regular competitor, will the skills you develop improve your shooting? Yes.

Many rules (especially equipment rules) are what they are because it was made through a PRS/NRL race gun lens. And...there is a large crossover in participation between NRL Hunter shooters and PRS/NRL race gun shooters. While not perfect from the perspective of making the best western hunting/shooting skills test, it did attract enough shooters to get the thing off the ground.

Getting people who already compete in firearms sports to try a different flavor of competition isn't THAT hard. Getting people who are fanatical hunters to spend significant time and money to shoot more in a weekend than they do in a year, is much harder. Even in this thread, you have people ask why anyone would consider shooting competition vs spend time in the field.

I seriously considered running a "hunters prep" match a few years ago, but I had too much going on to make it happen. I've since built a standing "hunters course" at a private facility I teach at. I need to get some reps on it and shake it out properly.

 

[ID_Matt]

Set 12 pounds as the benchmark (seems fair with a bipod attached), but have a points multiplier or detractor based on weight. Spitballing here, but say every pound below 12 pounds increases your score by 5% and every pound over 12 decreases your score by 5%. A guy shooting a 16 pound rifle would only get 80% of the score, while someone shooting an 8 pound rifle would get 120%.

Wait, so I hit more targets than you but since your gun is 1 lb lighter, you win?? So in some circumstances, being less lethal is actually rewarded?

I somewhat get the thought, but too many rules just gets crazy to track. People are going to complain no matter what so just make it easy and set it at 12 lbs, (which isn’t crazy) if you add a bipod and suppressor and call it good. This thread is already an example that you can’t please everyone.

 

[SDHNTR]

Do you really not understand or are you just poo pooing it? You have clearly spent a bunch of time and money messing with and thinking about rifles well in excess of what is needed to successfully kill animals.. Seems like a waste.. Some people like shooting beyond just when it's at an animal and shooting at 80 different animals (# of targets in a 2 day match) is about a lifetime's worth for me. I also have little to no interest in hunting coyotes in April-August.

Maybe a little of both? I dunno. Doesn’t interest me. Fortunately I can hunt hogs, free range, spot and stalk in mountains. It’s as “western” as anything and I can do it year round. So if I have a spare day, that’s what I’m doing.

 

[Bluumoon]

I'd like to attend some NRL hunter this year, seems like a good way to grow skils.

In the meantime we sent up a course on my property similar to what I've seen of NRL videos and game encounters we've had. Still working out kinks and how to run it for most fun/most hunt like. Last year we had each competitor approach station, identify targets and then started timer. Score was hits/points divided by time. I think next time I would have people come up, identify targets, then return to a start point.

Targets are sometimes hard to see even when I know where they are (tucked in/different paint schemes), so not sure of feasibility/utility of having shooters find their own targets without that becoming the main determinant of score.

Gear/rifle rule was roll with whatever you hunt with and everyone held to that, we had .223s-7 magnums. I think one tripod in the group, no "gamer" rifles. Had a couple stations where we specified a mag change or reload.

All that to say, I appreciate seeing the NRL feedback on this thread, gives me some ideas on where to improve.

 

[Lawnboi]

Maybe a little of both? I dunno. Doesn’t interest me. Fortunately I can hunt hogs, free range, spot and stalk in mountains. It’s as “western” as anything and I can do it year round. So if I have a spare day, that’s what I’m doing.

Unfortunately this is not the case for the vast majority of us.

I enjoy coyote hunting and shooting prairie dogs. Close by I have coyotes and you’re lucky if you get one shot a day.

 

[Formidilosus]

Maybe a little of both? I dunno. Doesn’t interest me. Fortunately I can hunt hogs, free range, spot and stalk in mountains. It’s as “western” as anything and I can do it year round. So if I have a spare day, that’s what I’m doing.

So how do you practice?

 

[SDHNTR]

So how do you practice?

Every once in a while I’ll set up a gong across a canyon, but most of the time targets look something like this:

 

[Formidilosus]

Every once in a while I’ll set up a gong across a canyon, but most of the time targets look something like this:

You you learn to miss or hit on living animals instead of a target?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Every once in a while I’ll set up a gong across a canyon, but most of the time targets look something like this:

I appreciate shooting animals like rabbits and coyotes here in the desert, but if I solely relied on that for my “western” and long range/wind training I’d only shoot like 2% of the shots that I currently do on steel and targets.

There’s no replacement for shooting steel if you truly want to be more proficient in my experience.

 

[SDHNTR]

No, you guys read a little too far into it. The actual shooting practice is done on paper and steel. At least to true drops and develop confidence in equipment. The set up and target acquisition type practice, the hunting simulation stuff, gets done for real.

 

[Bobrobheimer]

I shot my first NRL Hunter match last year (first match of any kind) using all the same gear I actually hunt with. It was a blast! Made plenty of mistakes and definitely benefitted from the experience. I am a light weight backpack hunter but It led me to bring a light weight rear bag on my hunts this year and it got used for both of my animals. I think sometimes as people who participate in these matches see results from using different gear they might end up taking the weight penalty and actually pack some heavier stuff in certain instances - maybe justified maybe not but some of these guys seem to actually pack the heavier stuff for hunting.

I didn’t shoot it as Skills and definitely wish I had - primarily because finding targets on our match (Laramie) was extremely difficult some of the time due to fresh snow and fog - as a skills shooter I would have gotten to shoot and learn even more.

Looking forward to shooting another one this year.

 

[SouthPaw]

You haven't been to the MDT match then

Some of the targets were brutal to find, the paint was awesome. The stage I RO'd this spring, only 10 or so shooters found one of the targets. Only 3 cleaned the stage. It challenges shooters on time management and when to just get the points you can versus finding all targets.

 

[Dave0317]

I haven’t done NRL, but I’ve done some LE and Mil focused matches that were run in a PRS style format.

Same discussion also comes up with IPSC and IDPA.

It’s not realistic. Period. And that’s fine.
It’s designed to get you out there, with a number of other shooters, getting multiple reps at something at least mechanically similar to finding a target and using your rifle to engage it. They originally thought they were doing hunters a favor with the power factor(keeping the pure gamers out of that division) not predicting how popular 6CM would eventually become.

It gets you thinking and problem solving with your hunting rifle and related gear. More so than a typical day at the public range could ever do.

They definitely designed it with some biases, like 6.5 CM being the power factor minimum. Weight limits are arbitrary, but they had to draw the line somewhere. Don’t assume there aren’t guys hunting with 16 pound rifles. I know a couple.

 

[6.5x284]

Guilty. I’ll be bringing my 15lb 13oz gun! I just compete to have fun and get more reps at new wind calls. I practice for hunting by myself in the hills just like I hunt. I like to bring a gun scouting and take some shots in the canyons and ridges I expect animals to be come fall. Lots of rocks. Throw a can of paint in and paint MOA size circles on rocks and cliffs. Some paint lasts for quite a few years.


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[dirtytough]

Throw a can of paint in and paint MOA size circles on rocks and cliffs. Some paint lasts for quite a few years.


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I don’t think most guys have private to be painting rocks and cliffs where they hunt.

If you are painting rocks and cliffs on public that seems like a no no. I believe they would consider that vandalism.



I did a couple NRL matches. Factory Tikka with SM rings, a Ti brake, NX8, and bipod I was over 11.5#’s.

Use a suppressor instead of the brake and I would be around 12#’s.

So it doesn’t seem that unrealistic using a factory rifle, suppressed, bipod, etc to be around 12#’s while hunting.

Because of wanting to be competitive @NRL I practiced more and in different positions than I ever have. That translated to killing a couple nice animals during the season.

If NRL was like the majority of hunting in the US it would be out of blinds or stands.

 

[TaperPin]

Anything that attracts a crowd of guys to shoot and is fun can’t be a bad thing. There aren’t many shooting sports that gain traction, so the ones that do should be supported - and take a kid shooting, you never know what he’ll get excited about.

 

[6.5x284]

If you are painting rocks and cliffs on public that seems like a no no. I believe they would consider that vandalism.

Probably right. Very common where I go though. I see lots of small rocks on on a hillside hit with a little paint for visibility. I’ve even seen cutouts for shooting platforms and sighter rocks cleared out for some real long range basins where animals regularly go.

 

[Shortschaf]

The people who don't shoot NRL now still wouldn't participate if they had a specific Division that suited their exact desires

 

[Formidilosus]

Viewing NRL Hunter competitions (or others) through a training tool lens for hunting or real life, versus it being golf with a rifle…..


When designing matches you have a sliding scale of “scenario replication” of whatever someone believes “real life” is, versus shooting skill development and measurement.
Perfect replication of real life in a match is not possible. Real life has time constraints that the shooter does not control- you are on the targets time; as well as the target moving randomly. Matches have to decide how much is given between those two view points.


Using another venue such pistol- you have two main options- static or mostly static competition, and action pistol where it is anything but static. Static pistol matches such as Bullseye- are good for one thing, precision. They fail at nearly every other aspect of shooting. Action pistol matches on the other hand give up a bit in pre precision measurement, but they measure and foster every other skill that used for a handgun. Bullseye shooting is fantastic, but action shooting is far better for skill development in all around use with a pistol.
In action shooting there are really only two venues USPSA and IDPA. USPSA measures raw skill- with no real desire or effort to measure “tactics”. IDPA was started to address the “unrealisticness” of USPSA and force “tactics”.
The “tactical” world repeats ad nauseam that USPSA scenarios are “unrealistic”, and that is true somewhat- USPSA isn’t supposed to replicate scenarios of real life, but to measure raw skill.
USPSA measures and scores all the factors of shooting handguns- drawing, accuracy, recoil control, multiple targets, target to target transitions, reloading, movement, shooting on the move, entering and exiting positions, rapid position changes, varying distances and target sizes, etc, etc; all while being measured to the hundredth of a second. How many points you get per stage (accuracy) and how long it took you to get those points add up to each persons score- that’s total points in a stage divided by your time - this is known as “Hit Factor” scoring. There is no “perfect” score- you can max the points on targets, but someone can always shoot it faster. This means that there is no ceiling to performance as there is no “perfect score” (unlike points and par times).
Equipment ranges from factory Glocks from retention holsters to open guns from open holsters. In either case the skills transfer from one gun to the next- that is a top end Open division shooter, is a top end Production division shooter the first time they pick the production gun up. Same is true in reverse, but to a slightly lessor extent as their is a learning curve to red dots on open pistols.
USPSA is a “free-flow” event. As long as you stay within certain guidelines for safety, you can shoot, move, and engage the targets on each stage as you see fit.


IDPA is relatively similar, except it mandates drawing from concealment, mandates use of cover, mandates when and what type of reloads, target engagement sequences, and when and how to engage targets. It is a time plus scoring in that your raw time is your score, with any missed shots being time added. In order to try to make it “realistic” it becomes far more contrived and unrealistic. Because IDPA tries to force the “scenario” instead of giving people the targets and letting them figure out the best way to shoot it- it artificially limits performance and growth in skill.

Between the two (and every other way) as a raw predictor of skill with a pistol in non-static use- USPSA/IPSC has no equal. Take a mid level or above USPSA shooter and put them on any pistol task that involves dynamic shooting, and they will perform extremely well.



Now let’s compare “rifle” matches. PRS is akin to benchrest, and has almost no real transfer to hunting. Yes it is better than no distance practice, but the equipment and gear is so removed from practicality that it has become too specialized to have much real transfer.

NRL Hunter was ostensibly started to address that. NRL Hunter does not replicate the “real life animal” scenario variability, but instead attempts to replicate the “shooting variability” side of it.
The stages are such that you have a fixed time to find the targets, range them and shoot them. The most movement is from one of four positions on the same target. Almost all shots are from prone, tripod, or triple pull bipod. There is no reloading, and only two shots per target- so no rapid shooting, no target to target transitions, etc, etc. Stages are such that under the par time you must find the targets, range them, and then shoot them.

The very obvious difference right from the start compared to the pistol matches above- is par time versus “time plus” scoring. You have “x” amount of time to shoot a stage, and shooting it faster does not increase your score. This is a massive difference between say USPSA action pistol, 3-gun/multi-gun, and NRL Hunter.
Unless par times are so short that there is no possible way to get all the points in time, the very nature of it means that equipment and focus will be put on other aspects of shooting- this is why PRS has become barricade bench-rest. The long par times as well as the start of NRL Hunter being PRS competitors and not action competitors, is why the “light” gun is 12lbs and they are mostly just lighter versions of PRS rifles. The vast majority of shots are from one of three positions- prone, tripod, triple pull bipod and that, with long par times, has artificially pushed everyone into certain contrived support equipment to do well.

The main issue is that the skill transfer is less than ideal outside of those environments. What you see when good, to really good NRL Hunter competitors (but not action competitors) are hunting, is that as long as the hunting situation and animal presents as they do in matches- they tend to do fine…. Unless they miss or wound on the first shot. Then on average their habituated loading and shooting techniques, the animal moving, any required positions changes, and time being a massive factor- is that their performance drops considerably. When things go wrong, their ability to recover and finish the animal/event is noticeably affected by their lack of ability to “shoot and move” under stress and time. Juxtapose that over to a good, to really good 3-gunner, and the issue you run into with them, is they can shoot before the spotter is ready, and they often shoot animals to the ground.
In seeing a lot of people kill animals, and while holding the other variables inline as much as feasible- when things go wrong action competitors perform better.
Which is logical when you break down what each type of match is doing to, and measuring of- the shooter. It is not that NRL Hunter is “easy” or that it is useless- far from it. It’s that it is measuring less, and what it does measure (and therefor pushes people to improve at) is not necessarily the best things for all-around hunting, and definitely not for recovery on missed or wounded animals.


Take a good NRL Hunter performer and they don’t generally do all that well in other shooting or hunting tasks that are active.




Competition breeds skill- no one is actually highly skilled without competition. Lots of people say they are awesome without ever competing at whatever event they are engaged in; yet when actually measured where they don’t control the event- it never works out that way. One can be “ok” without competing if they take practice seriously and measure their performance; but people aren’t truly skilled compared to those actively competing- the target and the timer are unforgiving mistresses and they don’t care about your feelings.
NRL Hunter and others matches of the same type are better than no competition. Finding the targets is a decent thing on the clock, however, the common matches are not as good as they should be for raw skill development.


Simply switching to a hit factor or time plus scoring systems would dramatically change the landscape of NRL Hunter. So too would it dramatically change/reduce the equipment common to be competitive. Making the max weights match the most common hunting rifles, making unsupported and offhand shots common, and making movement during stage be just enough to cause equipment and rifle management to be a real factor (crawling, climbing, going through or over obstacles, etc.).


If someone doesn’t shoot any matches at all, NRL Hunter is absolutely beneficial. Someone taking their actual hunting rifle, competing and trying to win- is much, much better than just going to a range and banging steel plates.