Non-reloaders without a chronograph, how do you zero?

[The Harbor Master]

Sorry in advance if this is a silly question... I'm debating what "kind" of zero I should be doing. I no longer reload (life happened and had to sell everything; plan on doing it again but not feasible for quite awhile) and am shooting factory ammo for now. Without a chronograph, would one just plug in the velocity from the factory box into a ballistic calculator and try to confirm at distance? Essentially try and play on the idea of maximum point black range?

I am shooting Federal Premium 7mmRM loaded with Berger 168gr Hybrid Hunter, from a Tikka T3x Superlite (24.3"BBL). I've played with the numbers, did the old "a little high at 100yds," then shot out to 400yds. This resulted in the following (pic attached).

100yds, +2.5"
200yds, +1.25"
300yds, -5.0"
400yds, -20.0"

Anyone else take the "zero a little high and see what happens at distance" method? Should I stop being dumb and just zero at 100yds and learn to dial? Using a NXS 2.5-10x42 in MOA (I know, I know, mils are better. Can't afford a new one right now). Dialing just feels a little silly inside 400yds, which is my self imposed limit unless I get a LOT of practice at farther ranges. Last 2 elk I took were inside of 150yds.

TL;DR how do non-reloading poors zero?

TIA

 

[H80Hunter]

1) I get a 10 shot zero at 100.
2) Then, into the solver I put the box velocity (adjusted for barrel length). If I have a 20" barrel but the box is 24" I'll subtract like 100 fps as a starting point.
3) I'll set up a big paper target and shoot at a longer range. I always go out to 600 but sometimes I'll start at 300.
4) Using 300 (as an example) I can see, OK, I dropped [fill in the blank] MOA from 100 to 300. I will play with the velocity in the solver. Until it "predicts" that the drop from 100 to 300 matches what I saw happen on paper.
5) Repeat this at 600. Often I just shoot a 12" steel plate and see.

This is good enough for me. Usually after 300 it's just a small tweak to app velocity at 600.

Then for hunting I'll dial to like usually a 200 yard zero. This works fine for hunting largely inside of 300 anyway, and steel out to 600.

 

[The Harbor Master]

1) I get a 10 shot zero at 100.
2) Then, into the solver I put the box velocity (adjusted for barrel length). If I have a 20" barrel but the box is 24" I'll subtract like 100 fps as a starting point.
3) I'll set up a big paper target and shoot at a longer range. I always go out to 600 but sometimes I'll start at 300.
4) Using 300 (as an example) I can see, OK, I dropped [fill in the blank] MOA from 100 to 300. I will play with the velocity in the solver. Until it "predicts" that the drop from 100 to 300 matches what I saw happen on paper.
5) Repeat this at 600. Often I just shoot a 12" steel plate and see.

This is good enough for me. Usually after 300 it's just a small tweak to app velocity at 600.

Then for hunting I'll dial to like usually a 200 yard zero. This works fine for hunting largely inside of 300 anyway, and steel out to 600.

Thank you, that is very very similar to what I was thinking of doing. Hopefully can get the solver to match (or be pretty close) to what I am seeing.

 

[TaperPin]

For the vast majority of traditional fast moving cartridges shot under 400 yards, zero at 300 yards and your life will be much easier. This works for 22-250, 243, creedmoors, 25-06, 270, 280, 7 mag, 30-06, 300 mags, etc.

I have yet to try a different method that is as easy to remember, quick to shoot, and in 15 minutes can take someone who’s never shot a deer and make hits from memory to 400 yards. Every person has a hold under or over gauge attached to the end of their arms that works well with this system. I’ve never even looked up a chart for 6 creed or your 7 mag load and I’d bet lunch it’s easy to ring the 400 yard plate with a 10” hold.

As a practical matter I automatically hold 1/4 the way up (or a hand width down if that’s easier to visualize) for both 100 and 200 yards. 350 is 3/4 up on a deer (or hand width up), 400 is on the back for deer, or just under the back on elk.

Even on scopes that dial, I walk around with the scope set for 300 yards and don’t touch the dials until past 400 yards. Dialing past 300 yards for flat shooting cartridges is usually 2.5 MOA @ 400, 5 MOA @ 500 and 7.5 @ 600. Slower cartridges are often 3 MOA, 6 MOA, and 10 MOA.

In an hour a new shooter can memorize and shoot from memory without dialing to 400 yards, and dial from memory to 600. That’s not possible with any other MOA zero that I’ve come across.



Here’s a fast moving 308 or slow 30-06:


Here’s a 7 mag and 300 yard zero:


Creedmoor:

 

[TaperPin]

The biggest problem with just a few shots at each range is you’re assuming incorrectly that they represent the middle of your group.

 

[PNWGATOR]

How to use a mil/mil scope-reticle, turrets and proper usage

I have gotten a bunch of requests to write up a "how to" for using mil reticle scoots. In this case the SWFA Milquad reticle. It is the 6x42mm SS with MQ reticle in the pictures, however the process and use is the same as long as you have a scope who's reticle matches the turret adjustments-...

rokslide.com

Good information in this thread regarding zero and velocity calibration.

 

[TaperPin]

Converting your numbers to a 300 yard zero, the 400 yard result you have seems very slow for a 7 mag - I’d bet lunch and a beer it doesn’t drop that much.

100 4.2”
200 4.6”
300 0
400 -13.6

 

[hereinaz]

You can get a 100 yard zero and then use the Gravity Ballistics app from Snipers Hide. Frank created the app that uses your own shooting data at ranges to develop a drop model based on your rifle.

The app will walk you out with data at whatever distances you have out to whatever distances you can manage. For instance, it will give you proposed drop out to 200, and then give you proposed drop out to 300, etc. etc.

If you only have 350 yards, then it can give the proposed drop for that.

 

[The Harbor Master]

The biggest problem with just a few shots at each range is you’re assuming incorrectly that they represent the middle of your group.

This is a really fair point. I'll need to do a lot more shooting to confirm, for sure. Eventually I'd like to put 10rd groups on targets at 100-400yds to help show the actual cone of fire. The Bergers are shooting right at 1" for 10rds at 100, so I'm somewhat just extrapolating 1moa groups at each range. I know there's a lot of variables (including me) that will keep it from being truly 1moa all the way out. However, shooting 10 or 20rd groups at each distance is going to be pricey so I will have to space that out.

 

[hereinaz]

This is a really fair point. I'll need to do a lot more shooting to confirm, for sure. Eventually I'd like to put 10rd groups on targets at 100-400yds to help show the actual cone of fire. The Bergers are shooting right at 1" for 10rds at 100, so I'm somewhat just extrapolating 1moa groups at each range. I know there's a lot of variables (including me) that will keep it from being truly 1moa all the way out. However, shooting 10 or 20rd groups at each distance is going to be pricey so I will have to space that out.

You don't need 10 to 20 rounds at each distance.

If the rifle is 1 moa, think about it like this. 80ish percent of rounds land within 3/4 and a majority will be concentrated in about 1/2.

When you go out to distance, if you shoot three, and you broke good shots from a good position, and the three are in a 3/4 moa group, then you can have high confidence that those three fell inside the 1 moa dispersion. You don't know where the three would land inside the 1 moa dispersion, but it is valuable and significant if you understand that the shots are guidelines to where the actual 1 moa dispersion COULD be.

You can also ignore a lot of horizontal dispersion (wind, cant, spin drift) and just look at the "water line" for vertical dispersion.

As you go out further, then trust each step along the way as well. Your next distance step might be just over or just under the water line. Understand that the "center" of the 5 shots is not perfect, and you can start to "average" it out with more shots and more data.

With a truly good 100 yard zero and honest group dispersion. If you take all that in, with 5 shots at 200, 300, 500, 600, 700, etc. you can plot all of those 25 shots together. You'll be able to intuitively analyze that and have pretty good data. If you are consistently low, then increase velocity. If you are consistently high then reduce velocity. If you are above and below, but the shots would fall within the 1 moa dispersion, then you have some solid data to predict the ballistic curve.

With just 25 shots you have a solid base to begin refining. With that, you can then shoot more and improve.

There are always "curves" to be thrown in for sure, such as velocity variation (extreme spread) so your dispersion vertically will grow beyond your 100 yard dispersion. And, you have wind increasing your horizontal dispersion.

But, as long as you harmonize and understand that your smaller group is a representative of the larger group, you can make adjustments as necessary.

You are gathering much more data and relying on more data, so it is not as if you had to shoot giant statistically significant groups at each range.

Edited to get back to your 1-400 groups. You could get data out to 400 very comfortably and confidently doing the above. The added "curveballs" don't really start to affect ballistics much with most centerfire rifles.

 

[TaperPin]

This is a really fair point. I'll need to do a lot more shooting to confirm, for sure. Eventually I'd like to put 10rd groups on targets at 100-400yds to help show the actual cone of fire. The Bergers are shooting right at 1" for 10rds at 100, so I'm somewhat just extrapolating 1moa groups at each range. I know there's a lot of variables (including me) that will keep it from being truly 1moa all the way out. However, shooting 10 or 20rd groups at each distance is going to be pricey so I will have to space that out.

The other nice thing about a 300 yard zero is you can ignore 100 and 200 yard groups - 30 round groups wouldn’t change the hold for either of the shorter yardages.

It’s nice to see where you hit at 400 yards, but a single 5 shot group is plenty. Folks get too excited about being exact, when the difference in center between a 5 shot and 30 shot group won’t be enough to matter at only 400 yards.

If I’m shooting a new rifle I’ll bore sight and get a single hole 4” high at 100 yards, then go straight to 300. A 5 shot group there, adjust, 5 more, until you’re centered, then 5 at 400. If your 300 yard group was off an inch, it wouldn’t matter at any range.

Whatever method of holding over or under you go with, pick one that minimizes the error between hold and impact. What I’ve laid out keeps that difference under 2” on target at all yardages. The hard part is having a reasonable hold at 400 on deer/antelope - anything over 10” drop is daylight over the back.

 

[The Harbor Master]

You don't need 10 to 20 rounds at each distance.

If the rifle is 1 moa, think about it like this. 80ish percent of rounds land within 3/4 and a majority will be concentrated in about 1/2.

When you go out to distance, if you shoot three, and you broke good shots from a good position, and the three are in a 3/4 moa group, then you can have high confidence that those three fell inside the 1 moa dispersion. You don't know where the three would land inside the 1 moa dispersion, but it is valuable and significant if you understand that the shots are guidelines to where the actual 1 moa dispersion COULD be.

You can also ignore a lot of horizontal dispersion (wind, cant, spin drift) and just look at the "water line" for vertical dispersion.

As you go out further, then trust each step along the way as well. Your next distance step might be just over or just under the water line. Understand that the "center" of the 5 shots is not perfect, and you can start to "average" it out with more shots and more data.

With a truly good 100 yard zero and honest group dispersion. If you take all that in, with 5 shots at 200, 300, 500, 600, 700, etc. you can plot all of those 25 shots together. You'll be able to intuitively analyze that and have pretty good data. If you are consistently low, then increase velocity. If you are consistently high then reduce velocity. If you are above and below, but the shots would fall within the 1 moa dispersion, then you have some solid data to predict the ballistic curve.

With just 25 shots you have a solid base to begin refining. With that, you can then shoot more and improve.

There are always "curves" to be thrown in for sure, such as velocity variation (extreme spread) so your dispersion vertically will grow beyond your 100 yard dispersion. And, you have wind increasing your horizontal dispersion.

But, as long as you harmonize and understand that your smaller group is a representative of the larger group, you can make adjustments as necessary.

You are gathering much more data and relying on more data, so it is not as if you had to shoot giant statistically significant groups at each range.

Edited to get back to your 1-400 groups. You could get data out to 400 very comfortably and confidently doing the above. The added "curveballs" don't really start to affect ballistics much with most centerfire rifles.

This is very helpful, thank you. I'll keep at it.

 

[hereinaz]

You can get a 100 yard zero and then dial any zero you want on the rifle, after you get the dope.

In fact, when I hunt, I dial on my "point blank zero" for the rifle I am shooting. Then, if there is anything close I hold fur and send it.

You can put your data into JBM ballistics and it will tell you your PBZ range.

I also built into my shooting process to always dial to zero, then dial up. Helps to eliminate the possibility of human error if you forget you dialed or if you dialed up a whole revolution. Zero stops are important for that...

 

[hereinaz]

This is very helpful, thank you. I'll keep at it.

Just remember, if the data isn't making sense:

Draw the imaginary possible group size bigger around the shots you have. When starting out long range, there are many variables that increase dispersion, especially as the recoil goes up.

If the data doesn't make sense, if you draw the imaginary group size large enough, then all the bullets will pass through that cone. You can't extrapolate out a perfect 1 MOA out to distance, because of the variables. The groups will grow.

Believe the bullet. If the cone "has to be" 3 MOA, then you suck by 2 MOA at long range, lol.

 

[hereinaz]

The other nice thing about a 300 yard zero is you can ignore 100 and 200 yard groups - 30 round groups wouldn’t change the hold for either of the shorter yardages.

It’s nice to see where you hit at 400 yards, but a single 5 shot group is plenty. Folks get too excited about being exact, when the difference in center between a 5 shot and 30 shot group won’t be enough to matter at only 400 yards.

If I’m shooting a new rifle I’ll bore sight and get a single hole 4” high at 100 yards, then go straight to 300. A 5 shot group there, adjust, 5 more, until you’re centered, then 5 at 400. If your 300 yard group was off an inch, it wouldn’t matter at any range.

Whatever method of holding over or under you go with, pick one that minimizes the error between hold and impact. What I’ve laid out keeps that difference under 2” on target at all yardages. The hard part is having a reasonable hold at 400 on deer/antelope - anything over 10” drop is daylight over the back.

This is one way to do it, and it makes sense for some shooters. I'm amazed at these methods that people use, its a creative way to get at killing stuff.

I can understand it, but with my brain all that is too much work. It is why I just get a good zero at 100, proof out my dope, and then use the ballistic calculator to tell me the best PBZ for the rifle I use.

It makes the most sense, because every rifle I hunt with is doped out to at least 800 if not 1000.

If I want simple for holdovers, on my AR-15, I use the 36 yard zero, which is good out to 300. If I were an eastern hunter, I would zero my centerfire rifles at 36 yards and call it a day...

The 36 Yard Zero

The 36 Yard Zero Target In the recent carbine courses we have discussed various yard lines to zero your rifles along with the pros and cons of each yard line. For those that have attended the courses now know that when it comes to your go-to 5.56 caliber carbine rifle that you would pick...

shawnryanshow.com

 

[The Harbor Master]

This is one way to do it, and it makes sense for some shooters. I'm amazed at these methods that people use, its a creative way to get at killing stuff.

I can understand it, but with my brain all that is too much work. It is why I just get a good zero at 100, proof out my dope, and then use the ballistic calculator to tell me the best PBZ for the rifle I use.

It makes the most sense, because every rifle I hunt with is doped out to at least 800 if not 1000.

If I want simple for holdovers, on my AR-15, I use the 36 yard zero, which is good out to 300. If I were an eastern hunter, I would zero my centerfire rifles at 36 yards and call it a day...

The 36 Yard Zero

The 36 Yard Zero Target In the recent carbine courses we have discussed various yard lines to zero your rifles along with the pros and cons of each yard line. For those that have attended the courses now know that when it comes to your go-to 5.56 caliber carbine rifle that you would pick...

shawnryanshow.com

I use 36yds for my ARs as well. This is why MPBR makes some sense to my simple, smooth brain lol. I'm getting this barrel chopped to 20 and threaded this year, so some things will change slightly then. But until then I'll just need to practice out to a few hundred yards to trust myself.

Ideally, I'll be able to just get closer. But I've also been in situations where that's not possible so I'd like to be prepared.

 

[TaperPin]

This is one way to do it, and it makes sense for some shooters. I'm amazed at these methods that people use, its a creative way to get at killing stuff.

I agree, if someone is serious about long range a dialable scope is simply
the cost of admission.

In these days of inexpensive dialable scopes, there’s less and less interest in maximizing distance using simple scopes with caped turrets and duplex reticles.

 

[hereinaz]

I agree, if someone is serious about long range a dialable scope is simply
the cost of admission.

In these days of inexpensive dialable scopes, there’s less and less interest in maximizing distance using simple scopes with caped turrets and duplex reticles.

I agree.

But, most people hunting can get away with a simple scope and a MPZ and then use a reticle to get to 450ish. Your practical way is one of them. Outside of 300, it introduces more complexity to solve the movement in a shooting position because it becomes, long range.