Non lead bullets and performance at distance

[Jfjfrye]

Hey everyone,
I’m new to reloading and am doing to development with my savage 300wsm. I’m a CA resident and we have to use non toxic ammo. I am currently shooting 180 Barnes TSX. Gun seems to like it. My question is…… With mono bullets am I better off stepping down in weight and running a 150 vs 180 so I have better terminal performance on game out to around 600 -800 givin I can do my part and get the right dope and make a great shot.

Also does anyone have any insight on Barnes TTSX vs. Hornady CX and the performance at distance?

Thank you.

 

[Axlrod]

I would go down in weight to get the velo and term. preform. up. This is what I used to do when I used mono's way back when. None of them create a large wound channel and they all will out penetrate most cup and core bullets. So a lighter bullet is good.The 110/120 grain mono's out of 270/7mm worked as well or better than the heavier mono's out to 500 ish yards on elk/deer/antelope/& moose. Very few recovered bullets, usually a 1- 1 1/2" exit wound. Animal runs 50-100 yards and tips over.

 

[SDHNTR]

Use the 168 TTSX, 175 LRX, 180 CX or Hammers. All are designed to more reliably open up at slightly lower velocity.

 

[Tod osier]

Hey everyone,
I’m new to reloading and am doing to development with my savage 300wsm. I’m a CA resident and we have to use non toxic ammo. I am currently shooting 180 Barnes TSX. Gun seems to like it. My question is…… With mono bullets am I better off stepping down in weight and running a 150 vs 180 so I have better terminal performance on game out to around 600 -800 givin I can do my part and get the right dope and make a great shot.

Also does anyone have any insight on Barnes TTSX vs. Hornady CX and the performance at distance?

Thank you.

The easiest thing is to figure out what the minimum impact velocity is and just look at the distance that the bullets retain that velocity. If a particular bullet has a minimum impact velocity, you also have to decide if that is OK for you - the listed minimum velocities often don't' result in the classic mushroom you many want (i.e., you need more speed than the listed minimum to get the performance you want).

I think if you monkey around with a ballistic app, and are conservative on what you want the bullet to look like after it opens you will find that it is really hard to find monos that are performing in the 6-800 yard range. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it is a challenge.

 

[Jfjfrye]

The easiest thing is to figure out what the minimum impact velocity is and just look at the distance that the bullets retain that velocity. If a particular bullet has a minimum impact velocity, you also have to decide if that is OK for you - the listed minimum velocities often don't' result in the classic mushroom you many want (i.e., you need more speed than the listed minimum to get the performance you want).

I think if you monkey around with a ballistic app, and are conservative on what you want the bullet to look like after it opens you will find that it is really hard to find monos that are performing in the 6-800 yard range. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it is a challenge.

Thank you. Yes that’s what I am finding. Which is why I figured I’d ask and see if anyone has first hand knowledge. I’ve had great luck with tsx and TTSX. But the Hornady cx is something I’d like to try. I heard they
Improved the copper material the use to make them so it will expand better. But I think there is a ton of variables that come into play with these bullets. I am going to load up some of the DRT 175s as well in hopes of using a non lead soft core. Only time will tell with that one.

 

[wind gypsy]

The easiest thing is to figure out what the minimum impact velocity is and just look at the distance that the bullets retain that velocity. If a particular bullet has a minimum impact velocity, you also have to decide if that is OK for you - the listed minimum velocities often don't' result in the classic mushroom you many want (i.e., you need more speed than the listed minimum to get the performance you want).

I think if you monkey around with a ballistic app, and are conservative on what you want the bullet to look like after it opens you will find that it is really hard to find monos that are performing in the 6-800 yard range. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it is a challenge.

Yep and even harder to find a hunter capable of performing.

 

[Wapiti1]

You'll have to look at the smaller makers that are focused on long range or at least low velocity performance. Cutting Edge, Apex, Maker, Macguire to name a few. They have designs that are "softer" than the traditional barnes/hornady/nosler mono design. Some fragment (CEB), others just mushroom at low velocity (Maker TRex).

Keep in mind the BC's on most of these are generally lacking in comparison to cup and core, and anything that does have a good BC needs a very fast barrel twist.

All that said, none perform like a Berger or ELD-M from a tissue damage standpoint.

Jeremy

 

[willfrye027]

Fellow Californian. I shoot a lot and have access to 700 yard range a few min down the road.

Monos suck at distance. No way I’d be shooting that far with a mono. Terminal performance gets marginal below 2200fps impact IMO, and wind drift is terrible increasing your odds of making a bad hit. Terminal performance is overall poor compared to lead even at higher impact velocity.

600 yards absolute MAX in perfect conditions, and you better be practicing it a lot. A minor, imperceptible change in the wind and you’re missing a 12in plate at 500 and gut shooting our tiny little blacktails.

Have killed two bucks at 500ish with monos, one was a rodeo requiring 5 hits (eventually hit some bone) before he died. The other was a perfect shot through his front leg but my experience is that monos and long range do not work well together.

I’d love to find a non toxic combo that lets me shoot beyond 600 yards, but I have yet to do so.

 

[SouthPaw]

Fellow Californian. I shoot a lot and have access to 700 yard range a few min down the road.

Monos suck at distance. No way I’d be shooting that far with a mono. Terminal performance gets marginal below 2200fps impact IMO, and wind drift is terrible increasing your odds of making a bad hit. Terminal performance is overall poor compared to lead even at higher impact velocity.

600 yards absolute MAX in perfect conditions, and you better be practicing it a lot. A minor, imperceptible change in the wind and you’re missing a 12in plate at 500 and gut shooting our tiny little blacktails.

Have killed two bucks at 500ish with monos, one was a rodeo requiring 5 hits (eventually hit some bone) before he died. The other was a perfect shot through his front leg but my experience is that monos and long range do not work well together.

I’d love to find a non toxic combo that lets me shoot beyond 600 yards, but I have yet to do so.

DRT is the alternative, a lead-free HPBT cup and core that seems to perform well at low velocity impacts. HERE is what I recovered of the 135g 6.5mm from my bull elk.

 

[Jfjfrye]

DRT is the alternative, a lead-free HPBT cup and core that seems to perform well at low velocity impacts. HERE is what I recovered of the 135g 6.5mm from my bull elk.

Yes I am definitely going to be working up a few samples to see if I can find a good recipe for the 175s or 200s. Would you mind sharing any insight on what the DRTs prefer as far as seating depth. I generally try to stay .050 off. But would love to know if you have any first hand knowledge. Thanks.

 

[Jfjfrye]

Fellow Californian. I shoot a lot and have access to 700 yard range a few min down the road.

Monos suck at distance. No way I’d be shooting that far with a mono. Terminal performance gets marginal below 2200fps impact IMO, and wind drift is terrible increasing your odds of making a bad hit. Terminal performance is overall poor compared to lead even at higher impact velocity.

600 yards absolute MAX in perfect conditions, and you better be practicing it a lot. A minor, imperceptible change in the wind and you’re missing a 12in plate at 500 and gut shooting our tiny little blacktails.

Have killed two bucks at 500ish with monos, one was a rodeo requiring 5 hits (eventually hit some bone) before he died. The other was a perfect shot through his front leg but my experience is that monos and long range do not work well together.

I’d love to find a non toxic combo that lets me shoot beyond 600 yards, but I have yet to do so.

Definitely enjoyed your rock cast the other day. Cool to see another FRYE doing great things. Thanks for the information.

 

[ehayes]

I just took a black tail in CA at 500 yards out of a .30-06 with a 175 LRX, 2750 muzzle velocity, 2000 impact velocity.
It impact about an inch behind the front shoulder and exited opposite side about the same. Nice size exit hole, not huge, but definitely didn’t pin hole. It did slice the heart.
Very clean kill, stumbled about 20 feet and laid down.
N=1 experience for what it’s worth.

My mule deer last year, same bullet at 150 yards, drop in its tracks and larger exit hole, but I also believe that bullet ricochet off the rear piece of the front should and tumbled out of the exit hole.

 

[DawnPatrol]

Use the 168 TTSX, 175 LRX, 180 CX or Hammers. All are designed to more reliably open up at slightly lower velocity.

Can you elaborate on this? Specifically, what that minimum velocity is for these bullets, especially the 168 TTSX.

(I’d love to chop my 30.06 down and suppress it, but I only shoot factory loaded copper bullets, and I’d like to be sure I’ll have enough velocity to get them to expand out to 400 yards).

Thanks!

 

[SDHNTR]

Call Barnes for more detail. It’s been a while since I have so I don’t remember the specifics exactly, but the 168 is actually the original “LRX” before they were called that. It was designed to open more reliably at slower speeds from non magnums. I want to say Barnes states 1600 as a min velocity for reliable expansion (don’t quote me on that), call it 1800 and you won’t have any problems. 400 and in from an 06 should be just fine.

 

[DawnPatrol]

Thanks! Much appreciated.

 

[SDHNTR]

Thanks! Much appreciated.

No prob. Honestly, I think the minimum velocity concerns with copper are largely overblown. I hunt hogs in CA year round and see them operate routinely. Unless you are really shooting something slow, any reasonable range of say, sub 500 ish, should be easily attainable with 1800-2000 fps+.

It’s something to be mindful of, but I’ve never seen copper really necessitate a change of build or cartridge plans. Unless we’re talking extreme ranges, in which case, just get closer!

 

[Braaap]

DRT is the alternative, a lead-free HPBT cup and core that seems to perform well at low velocity impacts. HERE is what I recovered of the 135g 6.5mm from my bull elk.

Was that a one shot kill?

 

[DawnPatrol]

No prob. Honestly, I think the minimum velocity concerns with copper are largely overblown. I hunt hogs in CA year round and see them operate routinely. Unless you are really shooting something slow, any reasonable range of say, sub 500 ish, should be easily attainable with 1800-2000 fps+.

It’s something to be mindful of, but I’ve never seen copper really necessitate a change of build or cartridge plans. Unless we’re talking extreme ranges, in which case, just get closer!

Thanks! My skills with a riffle are pretty minimal, so I can’t imagine ever wanting to shoot more than 400 yards (and usually it’s a lot less). But according to Barnes, the FPS are down around 2000 at that distance from my 30.06. I just want to make sure I won’t be creating a problem if I cut 4 inches off the barrel and give up more velocity. Sounds like you think it’s not a big deal, though?

 

[SDHNTR]

Thanks! My skills with a riffle are pretty minimal, so I can’t imagine ever wanting to shoot more than 400 yards (and usually it’s a lot less). But according to Barnes, the FPS are down around 2000 at that distance from my 30.06. I just want to make sure I won’t be creating a problem if I cut 4 inches off the barrel and give up more velocity. Sounds like you think it’s not a big deal, though?

What’s your muzzle velocity now? Should be at least 2700, in which case I don’t see it losing 700 fps in 400 yards!

This isn’t hard. Find your current MV. Then figure on 25-30 (to be safe, could be less) fps loss for each inch you chop. Then run that reduced speed through a ballistics solver and see at what distance it drops below the speed required for reliable expansion.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Can you elaborate on this? Specifically, what that minimum velocity is for these bullets, especially the 168 TTSX.

(I’d love to chop my 30.06 down and suppress it, but I only shoot factory loaded copper bullets, and I’d like to be sure I’ll have enough velocity to get them to expand out to 400 yards).

Thanks!

Some of the barnes LRX they say will open down at 1600fps for instance with some of the TTSX at 1800fps. That said as someone that shoots mostly barnes while hunting (some hammers too), I would personally avoid those lower velocities because while you get expansion you do not get full expansion. I STRONGLY prefer to keep the impact velocities 2200+fps and would go well out of my way to avoid impact velocities below 2000fps as a personal preference. With those in mind I play around with the ballistic calculators and I pick a bullet based on initial muzzle velocity and BC to see which are gonna deliver that criteria best.

If you knock 4" off your barrel and are down to say 2750fps muzzle velocity at sea level the 168TTSX would be ~2200fps at 300yd which is reasonable, at 400yd you're ~2030fps so I personally would be much more aware of the shot situation in that case (you're going to have less terminal damage due to a smaller frontal area creating trauma).