NM now requires license purchase for draw - impact?

[jspradley]

If you say so.
More of proof that without federal monies (taken from the PR act) most state wildlife programs wouldn't
be anywhere near as successful.
In essence they, the herds, are a result of federal efforts/taxes from hunters across all states.
The licenses and tags represent a controlled amount potential harvest to be taken.
In my home state we've a large number of whitetail.
For the state to claim they own them is another example of bs foisted on the public.
As in many areas animals migrate from state to state.
Who owns them?

R

No, I don't say so, the codified laws of the entire Unites States of America says so. Doesn't matter who pays for what, until that changes the states own all wildlife within their borders.

If it crosses the border to another state the animal then belongs to the state its in.

This ain't rocket surgery.

 

[boom]

Yes, the refund of license option will no longer be an option, effectively forcing the cost to apply for a single species to go from $13 to $78, My original question did people think that this would be a significant enough change that it would improve draw statistics due to lower application numbers.

Of course, you would get a hunting license so you could hunt small game or whatnot, but obviously applicants from 1000 or 1500 miles away are not going to flock to NM to hunt jackrabbits, so for many that will be of no value. No other changes were made, I.e., there are no bonus/preference points or changes to tag fees.

Ouch. Thanks for the notification.

I’m a CA resident. Heading out to NM is a trek for sure. I have options. Small game isn’t a huge draw for me.

I am however, gonna blast some quail Friday. Maybe punch a few bunnies as well.

Nevertheless, best of luck to all my fellow hunters. I hope some option, somewhere pays off for everyone

 

[cuerro viejo]

I usually hunt NM every year atleast for Jan mule deer so it’s just another cost on top of Habitat stamp etc. but it’s getting old since NR only get 6% of tag allocation, and your only true dependable elk tag is a shittty unit and pay an outfitte for his number. They also broke out several units Deer season so instead of Sept and Jan it’s either or. I haven’t drawn an elk tag in several years. Thinking about just forgoing draw and buying LO unit tag every couple years. Draw odds are terrible,

All they seem to care about it’s tag numbers, pretty soon I wouldn’t be suprised if they go to 3 day seasons And add 5th choice

 

[Trial153]

I woudlnt mind the license cost as much if NM wasnt so terrible with their welfare. The LO welfare kills residents and nonresidents alike. Its total welfare.
The guide pool at 10% is bullshit, more so that in many cases the outfitter are brokering the LO tags as well.

 

[Rthur]

No, I don't say so, the codified laws of the entire Unites States of America says so. Doesn't matter who pays for what, until that changes the states own all wildlife within their borders.

If it crosses the border to another state the animal then belongs to the state its in.

This ain't rocket surgery.

Would you be so kind as to link those laws?
Who is the state?
Who is these United States of America?
Should be easy as it isn't rocket surgery.

R

 

[CorbLand]

If you say so.
More of proof that without federal monies (taken from the PR act) most state wildlife programs wouldn't
be anywhere near as successful.
In essence they, the herds, are a result of federal efforts/taxes from hunters across all states.
The licenses and tags represent a controlled amount potential harvest to be taken.
In my home state we've a large number of whitetail.
For the state to claim they own them is another example of bs foisted on the public.
As in many areas animals migrate from state to state.
Who owns them?

R

Hey guys I have a brilliant idea. The Federal Government should take control of the wildlife, because they do such a great job at managing, all so I dont have to pay $65 to NM to hunt each year. Freaking brilliant.

 

[CorbLand]

Would you be so kind as to link those laws?
Who is the state?
Who is these United States of America?
Should be easy as it isn't rocket surgery.

R

Oh dear lord....please.

 

[Trial153]

This is a big stretch but I will do it....Tag allocations and insane rancher welfare aside, NM might just have he best drawing system of any state.
65 would be a steal to participate, if it wasnt in the running for the welfare capital of the west.

 

[Rthur]

Hey guys I have a brilliant idea. The Federal Government should take control of the wildlife, because they do such a great job at managing, all so I dont have to pay $65 to NM to hunt each year. Freaking brilliant.

If you looks close I never implied the feds should take control.
Ironic you mentioned it though.
That is in fact exactly what thay/ve done concerning the grizzly hunts.

R

 

[Rthur]

Oh dear lord....please.

So, it is rocket surgery after all.

R

 

[jspradley]

So, it is rocket surgery after all.

R

Or just not worth it to look up the codes for 50 states and federal code for a concern troll who isn't interested in educating himself.

 

[CorbLand]

So, it is rocket surgery after all.

R

I know this is hopeless but here we go. Its really not that hard to understand it. In fact, at the age of 17/18 I took a government class and it was pretty simple. The United States of America is made up of 50 individual sovereign States that each have their individual Governments. Each Government is made up of the people of each individual 50 States. Each State is delegated certain powers, one of which is the right to manage and hold wildlife in trust for the citizens of that State. Thus, the states have the right to charge for hunting licenses and tags as they see fit, regardless of the land they reside on. If the animal crosses a State line, that animal becomes property of the State, which are held in trust for its citizens, it is in at the time.

If you want to get into the nuisances of all the laws, then it does get difficult, but that is not what you asked. You asked what happens when an animal crosses state borders, it was answered. You asked you the United State of America was, its has been answered. You asked who the States are, it has been answered.

If you would like specific laws that state this, I present you with a link where you can have all your questions answered.

https://www.google.com/

 

[Rthur]

Or just not worth it to look up the codes for 50 states and federal code for a concern troll who isn't interested in educating himself.

I know this is hopeless but here we go. Its really not that hard to understand it. In fact, at the age of 17/18 I took a government class and it was pretty simple. The United States of America is made up of 50 individual sovereign States that each have their individual Governments. Each Government is made up of the people of each individual 50 States. Each State is delegated certain powers, one of which is the right to manage and hold wildlife in trust for the citizens of that State. Thus, the states have the right to charge for hunting licenses and tags as they see fit, regardless of the land they reside on. If the animal crosses a State line, that animal becomes property of the State, which are held in trust for its citizens, it is in at the time.

If you want to get into the nuisances of all the laws, then it does get difficult, but that is not what you asked. You asked what happens when an animal crosses state borders, it was answered. You asked you the United State of America was, its has been answered. You asked who the States are, it has been answered.

If you would like specific laws that state this, I present you with a link where you can have all your questions answered.

https://www.google.com/

The point isn't about what is written in the above.
We are the states and finance all they do.
We are the USA and finance all they do.
We then are also the owners and keepers of these natural resources including the land/borders/wildlife.
The "government" hasn't any monies that they haven't taken first from the tax payers.
Making the claim that the states "own" the wildlife is only true if you realize that we are the states and we are the United States.
Last time I checked State and Federal employees work for Us, it's more theoretical these days.
The money the Pittman Robertson act has raised made the previously mentioned programs the success they are today.

R

 

[jspradley]

That all sounds really good in theory and sovereign citizen rhetoric but that's simply not how codified law works.

Go out hunting on a military base fenced off with "Property of the US Government" signs and tell them how you own that property since we are all the people and see how that works out for you.

 

[CorbLand]

The point isn't about what is written in the above.
We are the states and finance all they do.
We are the USA and finance all they do.
We then are also the owners and keepers of these natural resources including the land/borders/wildlife.
The "government" hasn't any monies that they haven't taken first from the tax payers.
Making the claim that the states "own" the wildlife is only true if you realize that we are the states and we are the United States.
Last time I checked State and Federal employees work for Us, it's more theoretical these days.
The money the Pittman Robertson act has raised made the previously mentioned programs the success they are today.

R

The money that Pittman Robertson has raised is one of the many reasons we have what we have today and nobody has stated that it hasn't. So I am really confused on what you are saying.

Honestly, everyone has been answering the questions you asked, then when you get an answer you act like thats not what you asked. If we arent answering what your asking, maybe you should learn to articulate a question or reword it to make sense.

As to your comments about understanding that the State is made up of us, I think I made that really clear that I do understand that when I stated that State governments are made up of the citizens of that State. We do "own" everything the United States Government has. In this case we do "own" the wildlife, but we delegate the management of them out to the State.

I honestly dont understand how we can make it anymore clear. If you honestly think that just because you pay taxes, all government employees work directly for you and they have do everything the way you want them too, well buddy la la land exists but it aint on this planet.

 

[Rthur]

The money that Pittman Robertson has raised is one of the many reasons we have what we have today and nobody has stated that it hasn't. So I am really confused on what you are saying.

Honestly, everyone has been answering the questions you asked, then when you get an answer you act like thats not what you asked. If we arent answering what your asking, maybe you should learn to articulate a question or reword it to make sense.

As to your comments about understanding that the State is made up of us, I think I made that really clear that I do understand that when I stated that State governments are made up of the citizens of that State. We do "own" everything the United States Government has. In this case we do "own" the wildlife, but we delegate the management of them out to the State.

I honestly dont understand how we can make it anymore clear. If you honestly think that just because you pay taxes, all government employees work directly for you and they have do everything the way you want them too, well buddy la la land exists but it aint on this planet.

In previous posts it was implied that it was a privilege to hunt.
The above is the reason I disagree with that.
Tags, Licences, seasons may be a requirement but believing we are beholden/privileged to any state/fed entity is hilarious.
If you look closely you'll not find that I implied any work directly for me or by my direction.

R

 

[CorbLand]

In previous posts it was implied that it was a privilege to hunt.
The above is the reason I disagree with that.
Tags, Licences, seasons may be a requirement but believing we are beholden/privileged to any state/fed entity is hilarious.
If you look closely you'll not find that I implied any work directly for me or by my direction.

R

It is a privilege to hunt animals as a nonresident of any State. In order for it not to be a privilege, wildlife would have be managed at a Federal level. Which I think we can all agree would be a disaster. You dont buy a license or a tag because its a privilege to hunt, you buy it so you can take a public asset and make it private. When you kill an animal, you are taking something from the citizens of that State and making it yours.

As to your overall argument, I am still confused on what it is. I mean, your right we shouldn't be thankful to the government but I am thankful for the laws that in place to protect me from both the government and other citizens of this country. I am thankful that States have the right to manage wildlife as they see fit and I have a say in how they are managed(in the State of my residence). If it means I have to pay New Mexico $65 in order to have a chance to hunt in their State, so be it. I will happily pay it. I have a choice, it is not a forced tax.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I woudlnt mind the license cost as much if NM wasnt so terrible with their welfare. The LO welfare kills residents and nonresidents alike. Its total welfare.
The guide pool at 10% is bullshit, more so that in many cases the outfitter are brokering the LO tags as well.

Personally I think the LO tag is the saving grace of the state management. Only a 1/3 of the state is federal land. TX, AZ and NM had introduction elk herds after the losses of merriams. My ranch is close to the NM line. You know what happens when a farmer sees a herd of Elk in his corn circle laying it over. A lot of version gets processed. You know what happens when there are 85 pronghorn antelope herded up on a winter wheat field? Crop depredation tags. On the same spectra the premium wildlife habitat in NA isn’t federal land it’s private. With out private landowner stewardship... it doesn’t matter what’s on federal land, most wild life won’t make it.

Heck look what privatizing grazing on BLM has done for water enhancements to support that grazing has done for wildlife, if not think how would it be sparse

Like I said I like the LO tag system it eases monetary losses and breeds generations of tolerance. In NM unit wide elk tags also open those ranches to public hunting.

I hate thier contempt for NR especially since I’m in the cheapest state in the union for hunters to apply for public hunts, and there is no resident preferences in those drawing also

 

[3darcher2]

Sounds like we may see some slight decline in apps and improvement in odds.

It is interesting how different states handle their opportunities. My home state of PA allows anyone to apply for an elk tag for $11. If a NR draws, the tag is $250. There are no limits on NR. Every year you don't draw gets you a bonus point.

Obviously, most of you in the western states probably think we are crazy. We used to have a 10% cap on NR but eliminated that in 2004 I think. We have unlimited hunting licenses that include deer, turkey and bear for residents and NR. The NR license is about $120. And we pack close to 800,000 hunters into 44,000 sq miles.

Unlike western states, most of our license sales are solidly resident dollars. And our elk odds are long - about 25 bull tags and 100 cow tags go to about 20K applicants.

Basically, most folks wind up following what they know of have been brought up with. For a lot of you out west, NR licenses approaching $1000 or more if successful in the draw and a hundred bucks to apply as a NR seems normal. For many easterners, that's just not what we've been brought up with and it seems crazy to spend kind of money to buy a 2-3% chance. It's personal perspective I guess

Again thanks to all for responding. We'll check back in a year once the draw data is out!

 

[Trial153]

Personally I think the LO tag is the saving grace of the state management. Only a 1/3 of the state is federal land. TX, AZ and NM had introduction elk herds after the losses of merriams. My ranch is close to the NM line. You know what happens when a farmer sees a herd of Elk in his corn circle laying it over. A lot of version gets processed. You know what happens when there are 85 pronghorn antelope herded up on a winter wheat field? Crop depredation tags. On the same spectra the premium wildlife habitat in NA isn’t federal land it’s private. With out private landowner stewardship... it doesn’t matter what’s on federal land, most wild life won’t make it.

Heck look what privatizing grazing on BLM has done for water enhancements to support that grazing has done for wildlife, if not think how would it be sparse

Like I said I like the LO tag system it eases monetary losses and breeds generations of tolerance. In NM unit wide elk tags also open those ranches to public hunting.

I hate thier contempt for NR especially since I’m in the cheapest state in the union for hunters to apply for public hunts, and there is no resident preferences in those drawing also

I agree with your main points, in so far as there is a place for LO tags and what they were designed to accomplish.
Without going into specifics examples my thoughts about LO welfare in NM is based on first hand observations and personal aquantences who receive them. And quite frankly some of the rational for there allotment in NM is bullshit. You have tags that are being allocated for property that dont hold elk but in an incidental fashion and because the tags are unit wide they are wholesaling them out to outfitters who will be using them mostly on public lands or other ranches.
The amount of tags issues to land owners in NM in unit wide fashion no doubt in my mind takes away opportunity from both residents and nonresidents a like.

All that said I agree with your premise I just think the application of has some serious flaws in NM.