Newb with Ladder loading questions

[Luked]

I am still learning on the ladder load development part. Just started my first ladders with 2 rifles. My 243 Winchester and also my 6.5 CM.
The question I have is for the ones using the Satterlee method of the 10 shot ladder load.

What would you consider a "node"
What I mean by that is do you want to see a low ES in FPS on 3 charge weights. Or are 2 charge weights good also?

For example.
On my 243 i have one that i think is a node. but the ES is 16
32.8-2605 fps
33.0-2621 fps
33.2-2609 fps

Yet I have another that is 2 charge weights that are a bit higher velocity with an ES of 10
33.4-2646
33.6-2656



Now on my 6.5 CM its is quite closer for 3 charges and on the upper range also in velocity. with H4350 and 143 ELD-X
40.9-2678
41.1-2687
41.3-2687

And similar on the 6.5 CM with H4350 and the 147 ELD-M
a 3 charge group that is on the upper end wiht an ES of 16
But the last 2 at the almost max charge are within an ES of 9 but only 2 charge weights with one being book Max load.

Can come of you experienced guys offer some help.

 

[Axlrod]

I shoot ladders at 600-800 yards. I just look at the target to find the best load. I have seen many times a load with higher ES shoot better than one with lower ES. The target won't lie to you. Good luck!

 

[N2TRKYS]

Looks like alot of wasted time and components.

 

[JFK]

I see you didn’t take the advice that was offered back in June.

For the ones running a 10 shot Ladder load for Load Dev

When you run your 10 shot load dev with a new bullet/powder combo. Do you load only 10 rounds. Or do you run 2 sets or more of 10 with the same load amount? I am just starting out and have been trying to read and learn as much as I can about doing ladder tests. And my thinking is if I had 2-3 10...

rokslide.com

Edit: And if you don’t trust what you are hearing here, maybe give the most recent Hornady podcast a listen. They cover this very topic, and it’s worth a listen.

 

[seand]

I think you are wasting your time.

Would be fun to see the results - pick a random middle of the road charge weight out of the book and shoot a 20 round group. Then do whatever ladder method with the same components and shoot a 20 round group with whatever you come up with as the best. Likely they won’t be much different.

20 round groups made me a believer that in general the charge weight load development stuff is a total waste of time.

But stick with small sample sizes and you can be a believer. Especially with the Satterlee velocity method or audette, based on single shot dispersion data…..

 

[Rippey715]

Pick a velocity you want to run at.
Load to whatever .5gr increment gets you closest to that velocity. .5gr cause its easy to remember either a whole or half number.
Seat it to either the boat tail to shoulder junction or mag length.
Load development done. Load 500 of these and enjoy shooting and practice.

Its weird but you might notice your groups get smaller with more and consistent practice. Save all those components and barrel life for actual practice instead of reloading tinkering.
(this assumes you are using good components with a consistent process)

Good Luck.

 

[Luked]

I see you didn’t take the advice that was offered back in June.

For the ones running a 10 shot Ladder load for Load Dev

When you run your 10 shot load dev with a new bullet/powder combo. Do you load only 10 rounds. Or do you run 2 sets or more of 10 with the same load amount? I am just starting out and have been trying to read and learn as much as I can about doing ladder tests. And my thinking is if I had 2-3 10...

rokslide.com

Edit: And if you don’t trust what you are hearing here, maybe give the most recent Hornady podcast a listen. They cover this very topic, and it’s worth a listen.

I am on page 30 of reading every post. Just because I knew that was the answer I was going to get.
Not saying I am one way or the other. But still trying to learn.

 

[Billogna]

Painless load development (mine)

I have had multiple people ask me to lay out how I do load development being that what I do is different. Since Shaen @Shooter71 just rebarreled a Tikka 595 in 6XC I thought it would be easy to show how I do it. It’s a Master Sporter with a T3 lite profiled 20” barrel- keep in mind it is a T3...

rokslide.com

 

[Luked]

I have one rifle that I am going to hopefully get to the range with this weekend that I will be going through the Simple Form way.
long as it works fine I'm all for it.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I have one rifle that I am going to hopefully get to the range with this weekend that I will be going through the Simple Form way.
long as it works fine I'm all for it.

The key is that if it doesn't work, it's highly likely none of the other methods will make it any better. It has to do with the combo of components, not how they're assembled. If the result isn't acceptable, swap a component.

 

[Luked]

Another big thing for trying the ladder method is I also have young children and a wife that loves to hunt also.
My kids dont shoot my larger caliber rifles that have a lot of recoil.
My wife isnt going to go to the safe before deer season and grab one of my 300s is still newer to hunting and firearms and is quite recoil sensitive as she is smaller in smaller stature than most.

She shoots a 7mm-08 now but is also shooting Hornady 120gr custom Lite Recoil rounds because of the recoil sensitivity she has.

I have zero issues with the way that Form has laid out his process. But that process also seems that it focuses on the upper range of charges. Which in my mind makes it a harder thing to find a load that is on the lower range that is still accurate.

Or I could be wrong as I havent read all of Forms thread yet...

 

[Harvey_NW]

I have zero issues with the way that Form has laid out his process. But that process also seems that it focuses on the upper range of charges. Which in my mind makes it a harder thing to find a load that is on the lower range that is still accurate.

Or I could be wrong as I havent read all of Forms thread yet...

The painless method is the quickest way to essentially get maximum velocity performance out of a load combo. There is nothing wrong with shooting a lower charge weight, in fact ballisticians have shown there is a fair chance a lower charge weight will have less dispersion than a higher one of the same powder.

But shooting ladders, or OCW tests, or looking for "nodes", is not very beneficial to seeing the true precision. There's too much variability in 3-5 shot groups, and every time a "node" has been tested at a statistically valid sample size, it falls within the parameters of the comparison. So the point is to shoot more of the same combo to see how the rifle responds, and to change something that plays a much bigger role if the result isn't what you consider acceptable.

 

[Luked]

So @Harvey_NW
For my wifes rifle. would you suggest just picking a poweder charge on the lower end (not lowest) and running 10 rounds to see how it does.
If it does not shoot. then change bullet or powder?

 

[Harvey_NW]

So @Harvey_NW
For my wifes rifle. would you suggest just picking a poweder charge on the lower end (not lowest) and running 10 rounds to see how it does.
If it does not shoot. then change bullet or powder?

Yes, that's exactly what I would suggest.

 

[Luked]

Ill give it a try on the next range session and see how it does.
If it gets within 1" at 100 i am 100% fine with that.

I just loaded up some for my 243 Win using Forms method.
1 at book max of 45.5 with H4831SC, 1 at 46 and 1 at 46.5.
Ill see which starts to show pressure signs and then move .5gr down and load 10 and shoot.
If it works ill be happy.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I load 3 rounds at half a grain below book max(you can do a whole grain if you’d like) and I work up in half a grain increments to half a grain above book max. I load them to the test COAL. If that doesn’t give me the accuracy or speed I want, then I change powders. I’ve never had an issue with getting any bullet I wanted to shoot accurately. I’ve never had to do seating depth adjustments.

 

[Luked]

Also just finished a mild load of 10 for my wife's 7mm-08 with 120 SST and 40gr of Varget.
going to give that a go as well as a 10 shot group with the 300 BLK for my daughter with 120gr Sierra Pro Hunter and 19gr of CFE Blk.
Will see if it all works out ok.
I sure hope so.

 

[seand]

IMO there isn’t any need to creep up with charge weight increments looking for pressure signs. Velocity is pressure, just load to the velocity you want. (Assuming you are using the same components as the book load and adjusting for barrel length differences if any) Once you get a baseline velocity/charge weight from your chrono you can easily figure out how much powder to add to hit the approx velocity you want to run at.

The last load dev I did couple months ago: picked middle of the book charge weight and shot 10 for velocity. Looked in the book to see velocity change per gr of powder in the reference rifle. Then just added the powder I estimated needed to get the velocity I wanted to shoot at.

Shot 10 for velocity with the adjusted charge weight and was within 5fps of estimate. Satisfactory group size. Done.