New to Upland Hunting - Idaho

[IdahoM]

Never upland hunted. Somewhat inherited a DK/GSP pup last year. Life won't ever be the same.
Never been a dad. Had our first baby (boy) this spring. Life won't ever be the same.
What a combo in a year!

Wanting to put all my YouTubing, podcasting, and training into work on real birds.
All help is appreciated!

• Where to buy training birds.
• Where to hunt wild birds (not looking for an address, more of a general area = chukar, grouse, etc.).
• Habitat for particular birds.
• Local chapters.
• Rokslide threads I should be following.
• YouTube channels/videos to watch.
• Anything else you want to tell a new guy to upland hunting or GSP owning.

 

[WRO]

Tagged in to reply tomorrow


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[chemist]

What part of Idaho are you in? It is a big state and the way I would approach things will depend on your distance to wild birds. If a decent number of wild quail are 30 minutes away my initial training would be running the dog on wild birds a lot.

Build a solid recall with your dog.

Introduce gunfire slowly. A gun shy dog is one of the hardest things to fix.

Buy a quality GPS collar.

Carry three times the water you would if you were hiking alone. Particularly in early season be careful of your dog overheating and have plenty of water for it and extra to rub on its belly.

Run your dog into the wind on wild birds. Ideally get 4-5 bird contacts on the walk. Some dogs have a strong natural point. If your dog has a strong natural point I might approach training differently than if it doesn't.

Above all else, what are you trying to get out of your dog? A buddy to keep you company while you hike with a shotgun? A "meat dog" that will only hold point until you are within range? Steady to flush, shot and fall?

 

[tops911]

Good advice above! I'll second several things; recall is the most important to me; GPS collar, I've been running Garmin Alpha 100 and 200i for over 10 years now and I wonder how I got by before getting one: water, I carry 1 to 1 /12 gallons and none of it is for me, if hot I hunt areas with water or keep hunts short and make stops to stock tanks or ponds/creeks to cool off hot dogs; find a group to train with and they will have the local connections for training birds.

 

[IdahoM]

What part of Idaho are you in? It is a big state and the way I would approach things will depend on your distance to wild birds. If a decent number of wild quail are 30 minutes away my initial training would be running the dog on wild birds a lot.

Build a solid recall with your dog.

Introduce gunfire slowly. A gun shy dog is one of the hardest things to fix.

Buy a quality GPS collar.

Carry three times the water you would if you were hiking alone. Particularly in early season be careful of your dog overheating and have plenty of water for it and extra to rub on its belly.

Run your dog into the wind on wild birds. Ideally get 4-5 bird contacts on the walk. Some dogs have a strong natural point. If your dog has a strong natural point I might approach training differently than if it doesn't.

Above all else, what are you trying to get out of your dog? A buddy to keep you company while you hike with a shotgun? A "meat dog" that will only hold point until you are within range? Steady to flush, shot and fall?

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! A few answers to your questions to help narrow my search for advice.

I'm just North of Idaho Falls so anything in SE Idaho is preferred but I'll go where the birds take me and where I can get advice to go! I actually live 2 miles from one of the F&G pheasant stocking areas. What's your advice on getting a young dog (1.5 years old) on those compared to wild birds?

I feel like recall is solid without e-collar. I definitely need to get that introduced. Found a killer deal on an Alpha 200i and TT25 so I have those but need to figure out how to train with them.

I didn't hunt with him at all last season as I hadn't done gun intro yet cause I've heard that's the only thing I could screw up so I procrastinated it. But he's decently gun broke now but need to be more consistent with this.

That's a surprising amount of water so good call on that.

As part of me getting the DK, I agreed to take him to the natural ability test (on the DK system) this spring. He's got the genes for it for sure. Scored perfect 4's with a 4H in pointing. The only other 2 dogs to get Honors were his litter mates. Beyond his natural instincts, I've had a hard time knowing how to teach woah and steadiness. I'm not looking to win any field trials but I'd like my dog to be safe so my nephews and son (in 8 years) won't be too trigger happy and shoot before the bird flushes into the sky. So I guess that means steady to shot at a minimum.

I haven't force fetched yet. I guess I'm a little intimidated by it from all I've heard about it. Do you think I'm too close to the season to start it? Or if I wait until next spring/summer when he's 2 I'll be trying to undo bad habits he developed this season?

Again, thank you for taking the time to reply!!

 

[IdahoM]

Good advice above! I'll second several things; recall is the most important to me; GPS collar, I've been running Garmin Alpha 100 and 200i for over 10 years now and I wonder how I got by before getting one: water, I carry 1 to 1 /12 gallons and none of it is for me, if hot I hunt areas with water or keep hunts short and make stops to stock tanks or ponds/creeks to cool off hot dogs; find a group to train with and they will have the local connections for training birds.

Thanks tops911! Any great videos showing how to use the 200i that you know of?

What would you call a short hunt in the morning/evening? What would you call a short hunt mid-day when the sun is out early season?

What's the best way to find a local group to train with? I'm in the Idaho Falls area.

 

[tops911]

I think gun dog supply have videos and of course check YouTube for videos for using the Alpha 200i. I know I dont use the Garmin to their full potential but I get by with what I need.
A short hunt.. it depends, when I use 1/2 the water I'm carrying I head back to the truck (I keep 10 gallons in the truck). On a mid-day hunt looking for sage grouse in 90 degree heat I have actually left the truck running with the AC full blast and did a short 200 meter loop and back to the truck to cool off, drove to a new location and repeat. If there is water (creek/ponds) the hunt can last longer especially here in Montana in the colder water. I'd be careful in the south with the hotter water down there.
As for training groups, I've trained with many different groups over the years. I moved a lot in the Army. NAVHDA is a good place to start. We have a few local groups here in Montana that I found on social media and I've trained with them too. I'm a Drahthaar guy so my focus is not just birds so I train with the VDD-GNA guys a lot. If you are testing a true DK you will be doing JGHV testing and the Drahthaar guys should welcome you to training days.
When hunting season starts you really have to decide between hunting and training. I'm more focused on hunting so I let some things slide and let the birds train the dog. If the pup has a natural retrieve I'd just hunt, let him bring birds back and not expect perfection on manner of retrieve. my pup at 4 months would bring birds back and deliver to hand no problem. She was the easiest dog, out of the 3 ive owned, to force fetch (trained retrieve). I think more is to be gained by hunting over the pup and you can correct the retrieve next spring/summer.
Take that pup hunting on any birds you can, those released pheasants are just fine to get you and the pup working as a team. Birds will teach the dog more than you can, just expect your first hunt to be a "$hit show" and the dog will loose their mind, chase birds and the like but that's ok. In my opinion the first season belongs to the pup. If the pup bumps and chases a bird just call the pup back. I dont expect to get birds and if we do that's an added bonus. I just try to shoot a bird for the pup to get a fresh killed bird in their mouth. I started my last pup solo hunting at 4 months old, and also hunts with older dogs but I think solo hunts work best for inexperanced pups.
Most of all have fun!

 

[WRO]

Get the perfection kennels videos, my buddy rents pigeons and traps south of Boise if you’re interested.


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[tops911]

Another good set of videos to own are the ones by VDD-GNA you can get from dogs unlimited, they cover the JGHV testing and training. The VJP, HZP and VGP. With a DK your dog’s tests are pretty much the same, although i think there are some small differences . I had tested 2 dogs through the HZP and within the first 5 minutes of watching the VGP video i ordered both videos, the VJP and HZP are on one CD and the VGP is on another CD. The VGP CD is like 2 1/2 hours long so lots of good info

 

[PNWGATOR]

@Jason Snyder has a world of experience in this arena!

 

[Jason Snyder]

• Where to buy training birds.
• Where to hunt wild birds (not looking for an address, more of a general area = chukar, grouse, etc.).
• Habitat for particular birds.
• Local chapters.
• Rokslide threads I should be following.
• YouTube channels/videos to watch.
• Anything else you want to tell a new guy to upland hunting or GSP owning.

1. Look in your local Craigslist. PM me where you are and I can put you in touch with some folks.
2 and 3. Chukars = scabland/desert/foothills
Huns = similar
Quail = creek bottoms and riparian areas
Pheasants = similar but also crop rows, etc
Grouse = alder bottoms/ aspen thickets for ruffed, blues higher sagebrush meadows and broken timber meadows near water
4. NAVHDA or JGHV
5. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/off-season-for-the-dogs.349873/
6. Courtney Schaeffer has some very good training videos.
7. Establish recall above all else. Be consistent and fair with your expectations. If you want your dog to point don’t shoot birds he busts out.

For the love of all that’s holy, please don’t make YouTube videos about how and where you are hunting. I guarantee you’ll torch someone’s favorite spot in the process.

Hit me up with anymore questions you have I didn’t answer.

 

[chemist]

Another thing I forgot to add is that sometimes you will get advice from two different people who both know what they are talking about and that advice will be contradictory. Sometimes one person is flat wrong but more often they have different training objectives and different approaches that both work. For this reason I almost think it is as important you understand the logic of why somebody is training in the way they are as it is how they do it. Keep that in mind and do what you want with your dog.

From what you describe as your situation, I would be working on collar tone recall and recall to a whistle ASAP. You state your dog has solid recall currently. Start by pressing the tone right as you recall the dog and then transition to toning the dog right before the recall command. You will not be teaching the dog recall so much as getting it to anticipate the recall command until the dog views both as the same command. Recall from 300 yards in the wind can be difficult if the command isn't coming right from the collar.

With respect to training with an ecollar. I do not train with an e collar except trash breaking. I do however use an ecollar to reinforce a command at a distance that the dog was trained to without the ecollar.

You say the dog has a good point but does not know whoa. I personally would go light on the pheasant release site this year. Shooting a few with the dog so it understands you will help it get feathers in its mouth is a good thing. However, I have heard from colleagues at INL that the Idaho released pheasants don't fly well. If that is the case it will only be a matter of time for the dog to catch one. I am in eastern washington and havent hunted idaho released pheasants so there is that. The dog catching a pheasant will not ruin the dog but it could set your training back.

You have to drive west to legally hunt quail but you should be able to hunt wild sharp tail, chukar and Huns in your area. I view wild birds as a better learning experience for the dog but that may because I do not target release sights or the hunt tests/competitions.

If this is the dogs first season I would mostly be making sure the dog has fun. View busted covers as scouting for next time. I would only shock the dog in the field for trash breaking this first season. Otherwise take the dog hunting and only shoot birds the dog handles well. Do not take your friends hunting with the dog this first season unless you trust them to limit their shooting to pointed birds and you trust them to only take high percentage shots. The dog does does not need 10 rounds shot over its head each convey rise.

Are you going to want your dog to relocate on its own when birds run? That is a personal choice but start thinking about that before you train in earnest.

Look up Lewis dog boots. Gun dog supply has a video on how to put them on. You only have one dog and lava rock can be tough on their feet if the pads are not conditioned for it. A blown pad can mean no training/hunting until the dog heals.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Another good set of videos to own are the ones by VDD-GNA you can get from dogs unlimited, they cover the JGHV testing and training. The VJP, HZP and VGP. With a DK your dog’s tests are pretty much the same, although i think there are some small differences . I had tested 2 dogs through the HZP and within the first 5 minutes of watching the VGP video i ordered both videos, the VJP and HZP are on one CD and the VGP is on another CD. The VGP CD is like 2 1/2 hours long so lots of good info

These are good videos.

OP, there are a number of DD folks in northern UT and southern ID. They would be good resources for you.

Get your pup out and expose the heck out of him.

 

[jmez]

You could, and there are books written on this subject!!!

Couple questions, has the dog been on birds at all? What was the reaction?

You say the gun intro still needs some work. Is the dog scared of the gun at all?

I'm a bit old school. I like Paul Long's book and method. Training Pointing dogs. Short, to the point and absolutely everything you need to know to train a pointing dog.

You need a solid recall. You also need the dog to whoa. 2 commands pointing dogs need to obey.

Be really careful with the electricity if you are inexperienced. You can screw a dog up pretty quick. I don't "collar condition" my dogs. They will figure out pretty quick its a correction when done properly. If you are going to use the collar you use it for one thing at a time. Never used the neck collar to whoa or stop the dog. Never use the neck collar around birds.

You can't really train and hunt with a young dog. You are training the dog first and foremost. Don't shoot a bird that the dog hasn't worked perfectly. Shot bird is the reward, reward what you want from the dog. In the long run you will both be much happier.

As has been said, expose the dog to as many wild birds as possible. They will do as much for training as anything. Be real careful with released birds other than pigeons. Last thing you want is for your dog to catch a bird. They can't catch a pigeon, that's one of the reasons they are so popular.

What you really need to train is come here and whoa. Field time is king after that.

I'd add it doesn't sound like the dog is ready to be forced fetched. Worry about that next summer.

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[Rotnguns]

Some of the wildlife management areas (WMA) in Idaho have areas reserved for dog training and trials during certain times of the year.

 

[WRO]

I'm a bit old school. I like Paul Long's book and method. Training Pointing dogs. Short, to the point and absolutely everything you need to know to train a pointing dog.

You need a solid recall. You also need the dog to whoa. 2 commands pointing dogs need to obey.

Be really careful with the electricity if you are inexperienced. You can screw a dog up pretty quick. I don't "collar condition" my dogs. They will figure out pretty quick its a correction when done properly. If you are going to use the collar you use it for one thing at a time. Never used the neck collar to whoa or stop the dog. Never use the neck collar around birds.

You can't really train and hunt with a young dog. You are training the dog first and foremost. Don't shoot a bird that the dog hasn't worked perfectly. Shot bird is the reward, reward what you want from the dog. In the long run you will both be much happier.

As has been said, expose the dog to as many wild birds as possible. They will do as much for training as anything. Be real careful with released birds other than pigeons. Last thing you want is for your dog to catch a bird. They can't catch a pigeon, that's one of the reasons they are so popular.

In only use a neck collar and have broken multiple dogs with them. It’s not hard at all and there’s 0% chance I’d ever run a dog hunting with a belly collar, so why train in a manner that’s not how you’d hunt.

I put my dogs on wild birds by 12 weeks typically and just let them figure it out, kill every bird they’re actively hunting or flash point the first season, then whoa break them. I’m a huge fan of the perfection kennels methods, it’s pretty simple.


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[tops911]

I too am a believer in shooting birds for a pup. If you wait for “perfectly” worked birds the pup may never get a bird, it’s just my opinion. I shot a pair Huns over my 4 month old pup, she found retrieved one bird to hand totally on her own. I was pretty proud of her, she may have pressured the birds can caused the wild flush but it was an awesome retrieve. I want the pup to become bird/game crazy and as they mature and get additional training then i expect proper work from the dog. I also am of the opinion wild birds have a “vote” in this and don’t cooperate, leading to some imperfect work that is not necessarily dogs fault. But again I’m a hunter first and not too hung up on some things other people may.

 

[Jason Snyder]

If you wait for “perfectly” worked birds the pup may never get a bird, it’s just my opinion.

This is true. I look for effort. Did pup try to slow up and point? Or did they go full commando?

I’ll reward a flash point where the dog got closer than they intended to due to inexperience. As pup gets more experienced, then I hold them to a higher standard.