New to the muzzleloader game

[Matt5266]

I own a .50 cal Wolf. I've maybe shot a ML 4 or 5 times 20 years ago. Live in Idaho and new regs allow sabots. I have 1.5 lbs of FFG Triple 7. I drew a late elk tag this year and I'm pretty stoked to try some thing new. Couple questions....

1) what would be a good elk bullet using the powder I currently have. What would be a good charge weight along with it?

2) what's the best to measure by volume or on a scale? What does the different between the two usually come out too.

3) being as idaho is still open sights. What is the general max range of a ML with open sights.what size groups are acceptable? What's the best range to zero at?

4) how often do you clean a ML? What's the best method?

Thanks in advance for the input.

 

[JasonWi]

Congrats on the tag!

Here in Oregon we’ve got fairly similar rules for MZ so hopefully this will help. This is based off of about 10 deer between our group so take that into consideration and zero elk.

1. No Excuse 460 grain have been amazingly accurate with FFF 7 for us. I use a felt wad, my hunting partners don’t. Accuracy is fairly similar between all three. This would be a bullet I wouldn’t hesitate to use on elk. We use 85,90,95 grains all by V depending on the person.

2. I typically measure by Volume, but I’ve also done it by weight. Regardless of which you choose stick with it the entire time.

3. This will depend on the terrain you’re hunting. If dark timber and close shots then 50 yards is fine, if big pocket meadows and possibly longer shots 100 zero. Mine is dead on at 100, about 2.5-3” groups but I think that’s more due to the fiber optic size on my knight then the charge/combo

4. I clean it every time I’m done shooting. If you search Sabotloaders posts he has a great thread about it

 

[Matt5266]

Congrats on the tag!

Here in Oregon we’ve got fairly similar rules for MZ so hopefully this will help. This is based off of about 10 deer between our group so take that into consideration and zero elk.

1. No Excuse 460 grain have been amazingly accurate with FFF 7 for us. I use a felt wad, my hunting partners don’t. Accuracy is fairly similar between all three. This would be a bullet I wouldn’t hesitate to use on elk. We use 85,90,95 grains all by V depending on the person.

2. I typically measure by Volume, but I’ve also done it by weight. Regardless of which you choose stick with it the entire time.

3. This will depend on the terrain you’re hunting. If dark timber and close shots then 50 yards is fine, if big pocket meadows and possibly longer shots 100 zero. Mine is dead on at 100, about 2.5-3” groups but I think that’s more due to the fiber optic size on my knight then the charge/combo

4. I clean it every time I’m done shooting. If you search Sabotloaders posts he has a great thread about it

Thank you sir! I'll do some more digging.

 

[GuyMontag42]

*caveat my knowledge is limited to flint/cap-locks with round balls.

2) what's the best to measure by volume or on a scale?
- If you're muzzleloading for hunting I would go by volume. That way you can measure easier in the field or at the truck if needed (not having to bring a scale). I'm pretty sure sabots can utilized pre-measured powder blocks? Maybe those require different primers though? Another rabbit hole...
- Scale is going to be more precise I think everyone would agree, but not to any significant effect whatsoever in this field. Most guys use something like this while hunting. I pre-measure a few rapid loads when I go hunt so I can have relatively quick follow up shots and don't need to try and rapid measure while looking for a buck shot. There are different types of all these devices so do some googling for your setup.

3) What is the general max range of a ML with open sights.what size groups are acceptable? What's the best range to zero at?
- Whatever you are comfortable at. For hunting purposes and muzzleloaders the 6 inch group range seems reasonable. If you can consistently hit a 6 inch group at 150 yards (for example) then I don't think anyone would question your efficacy in hunting deer at that distance. At 100 yards you should be more effective than that with sabots I assume? Aim small miss small...
- Standard rule without knowing terrain/goals would be to zero at 100. You may be shooting a little high at 50 yards, but it is easier to hold under with iron sights than hold over if you really get that close and have a need to. To that point, once you zero at 100, you'll want to shoot at 50 to ensure you understand trajectory of whatever load you've dialed.

*being as idaho is still open sights. - Get either fiber optic sights or a peep sight for your muzzleloader. Either will be an improvement over standard iron sights in my experience.
- Side comment - I think it is important that idaho has been committed to keeping muzzleloader hunting primitive (i'm not familiar with the new regs). In Utah last year I sighted in my flintlock next to a guy sighting his muzzleloader in at 300 yards. It felt more like a modern rifle...

- Check these local guys out with questions/gear. They have always been helpful when i've reached out. https://www.octobercountry.com/

 

[Ringbill27]

Disclaimer: I’ve never hunted elk with a muzzleloader. And have been told I know nothing about muzzleloading and elk hunting by folks on here. Ok moving on.

Ive been hunting with a CVA wolf for 6-7 years now. I don’t use loose powder anymore so I won’t speak to that. I use Barnes 250yd with white hot pellets. This combo hammers deer.

It came with iron sights and for the first couple years I have to use them. I had come to the conclusion at that time the this was a 4” grouper at 50yds. Didn’t like it but it is was it is. (I believe at this time I was using the powder you have)

A couple years later my state allows scopes so immediately slapped one and all of the sudden I have a 1.5” at 100yds gun. So I don’t blame the gun I blame my eyes. Although the big front fiber optic sight covers the whole target at 100yds so not quite a precise setup.

I’d definitely go peep sights over traditional irons.

As for cleaning I go in to the season clean then deep clean at the end of season. So this is the big one for me. After the end of season clean I run a patch of bore butter through the barrel and get a good coating for storage. I didn’t the first year and the barrel inside was coated with heavy rust when I pulled it out the next year.

So coming back to bullet choice for elk. I’d still use the 250gr Barnes and maybe go to 3 pellets and not go to far past 100yds. I hope this is useful to you.

 

[HNTRDAVE]

Big fan of Blackhorn powder, been using it in my TC inline for awhile now. Shoot Barnes bullets also.

 

[GuyMontag42]

Regarding cleaning, black powder is pretty dirty/fouling stuff generally speaking. I was always taught that you should clean after every shooting session at least, if not after every 5-10 shots (or more importantly when groups start opening up). If you shot 20 shots in a row and all inside a 3” group I don’t think anyone would say you need to clean it more, because why?

Wolf themselves probably have plenty of recommendations for the best way to treat their barrels (e.g cleaning/loads). Unsure their recommendation for barrel break in as well.

 

[ElDiablito]

That’s a lot of questions. I’m gonna keep it short.

90-110 gr by volume. No reason to weigh with bp subs.

I’d use a heavy lead bullet like a 420-600 gr No Excuses bullet or a proven bullet in a sabot like a 300 gr Swift A-Frame or 300 Barnes mono.

Swab between shots with 777 and full clean after each range session. 777 is pretty corrosive. Water-based solvent like Butches Black Powder Bore Shine, simple green or windex.

 

[Matt5266]

What are the thoughts on a 300 grain hornady xtp in a sabot like this for elk?

Hornady XTP Mag Bullets 50 Cal Sabot 45 Cal 300 Grain Jacketed Hollow

Designed for hunting with today's high performance muzzleloaders, these sabots feature the popular Hornady XTP jacketed hollow point bullet. This...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[ElDiablito]

What are the thoughts on a 300 grain hornady xtp in a sabot like this for elk?

Hornady XTP Mag Bullets 50 Cal Sabot 45 Cal 300 Grain Jacketed Hollow

Designed for hunting with today's high performance muzzleloaders, these sabots feature the popular Hornady XTP jacketed hollow point bullet. This...

www.midwayusa.com

The mag version would probably be fine. I wouldn’t use the non-mag 300 though.

Here’s a test on the mag. Did pretty well.

300g XTP Magnum -- 80g BH

The recent discussions about bullets suitable for hunting bear, got me fired up, to look at the 300 grain XTP Magnum. The bullet penetrated the carpet, plywood, and all six jugs. It was found in the last jug.

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

Not quite as well as an A-Frame though.

300g A-Frame--80g Blackhorn

buckhtr77 sent these bullet to shoot through the test. The range was 25 yard. Actual bullet weight was 300.6g.

www.modernmuzzleloader.com

 

[KnightExtreme]

If you are shooting Blk Subs like T7 or Pyrodex you want to run a patch down between each shot and throughly clean after you are done shooting. As you will get what is called a "crud ring" and that effects the ignition and performance / accurancy. If you are using BH209 Powder you can wait till you are done with shooting session.
As measuring Volume is different in amount as to Weight. like 100 grains by volume is not the same as weight as weight is much less. Once you decide the way you are planning to measure your Loads of Powder you want to stick to it and be consistent.
KnightExtreme

 

[flyfisher117]

I’m also new to this and drew my first late season ML elk tag too. So Take it for what it’s worth.

No excuse 460 grain bullets are giving me excellent results over Tripple 7. I’m running a lubed OxYoke wad under them, recommended by some others in the state running a similar combo.

Which sights do you have? My Optima came with the basic 3 dot fiber optic. It covered the entire target at 50 yards. I just installed the western peep sight set with the .019 front fiber optic. I am much happier with this combo. I can actually shoot groups at 50 now.

 

[Matt5266]

I’m also new to this and drew my first late season ML elk tag too. So Take it for what it’s worth.

No excuse 460 grain bullets are giving me excellent results over Tripple 7. I’m running a lubed OxYoke wad under them, recommended by some others in the state running a similar combo.

Which sights do you have? My Optima came with the basic 3 dot fiber optic. It covered the entire target at 50 yards. I just installed the western peep sight set with the .019 front fiber optic. I am much happier with this combo. I can actually shoot groups at 50 now.

Are you shooting ffg or fffg? I've heard good things about those bullets I just feel like using sabots will likely gain me a little bit of accuracy and velocity? Could just be wishful thinking. My muzzleloader has a William's western rear at the moment and the factory fiber optic. Its huge. Definalty going to replace it with the matching front sight to my rear....

 

[flyfisher117]

Are you shooting ffg or fffg? I've heard good things about those bullets I just feel like using sabots will likely gain me a little bit of accuracy and velocity? Could just be wishful thinking. My muzzleloader has a William's western rear at the moment and the factory fiber optic. Its huge. Definalty going to replace it with the matching front sight to my rear....

FFG.

I haven’t spent too much time on the sabots yet. Figured I’d get my sights squared away with cheaper projectiles for now. Once I figure out my favorite combo I’ll tinker with the more expensive projectiles. The ELDx are on my radar too.

 

[Matt5266]

FFG.

I haven’t spent too much time on the sabots yet. Figured I’d get my sights squared away with cheaper projectiles for now. Once I figure out my favorite combo I’ll tinker with the more expensive projectiles. The ELDx are on my radar too.

What charge weight is working for you with the no excuses?

 

[burr24&2]

I am from the east and out whitetail rut fall durning muzzleloader season in Va . I’ve been tinker with muzzleloader for the last 25 years . I have two current setups . A TC OMEGA that I have converted to LR rifle primers and use the BH 209 powder . I use both a power belt elr and a tc sabot both are ballistic tipped bullets . I always try to break both front shoulder . The ribs can be less dense and not mushroom the bullets and entry and exit can be the same size . I’ve had great success with the imr Whitehots as well .

 

[KnightExtreme]

There are several Sabot Bullets, it seems more about what your rifle likes. There are Parker Ballistic Extremes, Barnes T-EZ & TMZ's, there is also Harvester Scorpion PT Golds, Hornady SST's, PR QT's & Dead Centers, But each seems to use different Sabots so some are tough to get down the bore while others are easy and others in between. Once you learn what Sabots works and then what Bullets then you need range time to dial in your amount of Powder, Cap / Primer and then Sabot & Bullet that your Rifle Prefers. Some testing involved for sure.
But it pays off when you take the shot.
KnightExtreme

 

[ElDiablito]

There are literally dozens of .45 bullets that can be shot well with sabots in a .50. Lots of choices. And you can mix and match bullets and sabots. Many of us buy bulk bullets and bulk sabots. MMP and Harvester are the two companies that make sabots. Both make a smaller and a standard/larger loaded-OD sabot. So if the bullet you want to use loads too tightly with a standard sabot, you can switch to the easier loading sabot (MMP HPH24 or Harvester Crush Rib). Pro tips: Saboted bullets shoot best when knurled to grip the sabot consistently and when fairly tight in the bore.

Sabots offer many benefits over full bore conicals for hunting. If legal, they’re nearly always a better choice.

Most guys are shooting a .50 and most of those these days are 1:28” twist, so most .45 bullets in the 250-300 gr range should shoot well with the right charge.

 

[Matt5266]

There are literally dozens of .45 bullets that can be shot well with sabots in a .50. Lots of choices. And you can mix and match bullets and sabots. Many of us buy bulk bullets and bulk sabots. MMP and Harvester are the two companies that make sabots. Both make a smaller and a standard/larger loaded-OD sabot. So if the bullet you want to use loads too tightly with a standard sabot, you can switch to the easier loading sabot (MMP HPH24 or Harvester Crush Rib). Pro tips: Saboted bullets shoot best when knurled to grip the sabot consistently and when fairly tight in the bore.

Sabots offer many benefits over full bore conicals for hunting. If legal, they’re nearly always a better choice.

Most guys are shooting a .50 and most of those these days are 1:28” twist, so most .45 bullets in the 250-300 gr range should shoot well with the right charge.

Thank you sir. Solid info. Kind of stuff I'm looking for.

 

[Petcoon]

I have had decent success with Hornady great plains bullets, .50 cal 385 grain, but as was said we can't use sabots in Oregon, I didnt' catch it above but I would use RWS musket caps instead of #11 Caps if that was not mentioned. unless 209 primers are legal.