New Study Shows 9.52 Million Acres of Western Public Lands Are Landlocked

[BuzzH]

There is truth to both ends of the argument regarding CRP/WRP going on.

If anyone believes there isn't people taking complete advantage of the program and bending the rules (being polite here) to take advantage of the program, you need a heavy dose of smelling salts. I personally have friends in Montana that bought, and paid land off with CRP payments in the late 1980's...not sure that was the intent of the program, but that's the reality of how lucrative the program is/was.

Does it do some good? Sure it does and I reluctantly support both the CRP/WRP because of the fringe benefits to wildlife. Do the programs need to be tightened up and have over-sight? Absolutely.

Its always funny to listen to people that take direct government welfare in the form of CRP/Crop Subsidies, etc. whine that food stamp recipients should be drug tested, have their benefits reduced, etc. etc...always good for a chuckle.

I'm all about having the discussion about welfare, but that is going to include ALL welfare programs and I have a feeling many would not like the outcome.

For those that are interested...a great source for seeing where your tax dollars go in regard to the various farm subsidies:

EWG Farm Subsidy Database || Home

Another thing that's always made me shake my head is how this entire farm subsidy program was meant to help the "family" farm...take a look at the top recipients in each state...agribusinesses and large corporate farms dominate the subsidy landscape.

Is/was that the intent of the program???

 

[KJH]

Lots of truths, mis-truths, misconceptions, and emotion in this thread coming from every angle. Like BuzzH said "There is truth to both ends of the argument regarding CRP/WRP going on.".

Without farm subsidies, our economy would crumble. We couldn't afford the food we have and there wouldn't be enough to export. It might be seem as welfare for a producer, but the second and third order effects are a subsidy to everyone in the country. Its fine if you choose not to believe that. Specifically on the CRP enrollment, its not a simple process, and it was not intended to have any effect on wildlife. That is a second and third order effect that all of us on this thread agree is a good thing. I can't and won't change your mind on farm subsidies being welfare... just realize that there are two sides to the argument and that the programs are meeting their intended purpose. Yes, someone is benefiting directly. But everyone benefits indirectly, even if you're not willing to admit that.

Philosophically and emotionally, I wish that everything that was in CRP or a similar program would be open to the public as part of the program, but that's not practical and has nothing to do with the purpose of the program. If it was the case, program would be administered by the USFWS, instead of the USDA. Its private land. If I can take vulnerable land out of production and receive some level of return for doing it that in a way that benefits my business, then I'm smart in doing so. Its my land to do with what I want. Our constitution gave us that right. If you look for ways to reduce your taxes each year and increase your in-hand cash, within the confines of the law, then its no different that a producer using the laws and government programs to diversify or increase his/her in-hand cash. You can't look at something one way when it doesn't benefit you and a different way when it doesn't. Nothing is fair and equitable. If it was, it would be communism or socialism.

Now, on the original issue of government owned land not being available to the public, that is a problem. But the root is a nations of laws and private property rights which we can't do without, and that isn't a problem. The OP study doesn't even seem to include all of the "school land" that is owned by the state governments in places where they still have it. In my state that is still a tremendous amount of school land that isn't available to anyone except the lessee. Is that right???, I don't want to think so but that is the way it is.

If you want to access something that is 100% landlocked by private land, you can still get to that land if you want to pay for a way to get there that doesn't infringe on the private land. Helicopters and airplanes are not practical but the fact is, you're not likely restricted if you have the ingenuity and means to access it. I agree that in an perfect wold, all public land would be available to anyone wanting to drive up to it and park, but private land is private. You can't infringe upon private property just because you think you should be able to. If that was the case, someone could just decide to park in your front yard or cut across your corner lot because it helps them do what they want. I want 100% open access, but that isn't possible or practical under the law. Don't forget we formed our own country to have private land rights (land that wasn't owned by the King or Government). I don't like being kept away from public lands more than anyone else, but I do like the concept of being able to own property (of any form) and do with it what I want. Emotion and "want to" just doesn't provide a reason to ignore private property rights.

I hope I made my point and this wasn't just a ramble.

 

[cuerro viejo]

There is truth to both ends of the argument regarding CRP/WRP going on.

If anyone believes there isn't people taking complete advantage of the program and bending the rules (being polite here) to take advantage of the program, you need a heavy dose of smelling salts. I personally have friends in Montana that bought, and paid land off with CRP payments in the late 1980's...not sure that was the intent of the program, but that's the reality of how lucrative the program is/was.

Does it do some good? Sure it does and I reluctantly support both the CRP/WRP because of the fringe benefits to wildlife. Do the programs need to be tightened up and have over-sight? Absolutely.

Its always funny to listen to people that take direct government welfare in the form of CRP/Crop Subsidies, etc. whine that food stamp recipients should be drug tested, have their benefits reduced, etc. etc...always good for a chuckle.

I'm all about having the discussion about welfare, but that is going to include ALL welfare programs and I have a feeling many would not like the outcome.

For those that are interested...a great source for seeing where your tax dollars go in regard to the various farm subsidies:

EWG Farm Subsidy Database || Home

Another thing that's always made me shake my head is how this entire farm subsidy program was meant to help the "family" farm...take a look at the top recipients in each state...agribusinesses and large corporate farms dominate the subsidy landscape.

Is/was that the intent of the program???

I’m sure there is a little fraud somewhere but let’s state facts,

There is a 50K total a year cap. At the highest rate in the country which is small section of Iowa at $181 that would be 423 acres on a 15 year contract. That’s a 15 year total of $2715 an acre, in country that costs 7-8k acre, And that land grosses $900-1000 an acre if in corn production.

Around me CRP it’s $10-30acre and Land costs 900-2500(w/water well)

I just bought some land in CRP and took it out and put it back into production. CRP contract was $13 an acre. I paid for three years of payments and penalties with one growning season.....


Not exactly easy to defraud or have it fully finance Land. Numbers just don’t work out.

Also vast majority of the subs is crop insurance(a paid into program) and CRP/WRP.



Like I said earlier I’m all about grain following inflation, but Not everyone most is ready or can afford that addittional daily expense. Farm subs cost actual tax payers about $15 a payer, and our food cost half of what it did in 1960....the extreme left EWG doesn’t mention that

I’m off my soap box but just wanted for people to be aware of the real facts.

Note -part of the ag bill was a Land Access Program, called VPA-HIP. It’s a lease program for walk in hunter traffic, out side of a small payment it reduces liability greatly!! I’m a big fan and have talked many of my peers into enrolling, combine it with land conservation fund it it’s a win win. Talk about it, educate everyone. Sell it with passion to anyone that will listen

 

[BuzzH]

I’m sure there is a little fraud somewhere but let’s state facts,

There is a 50K total a year cap. At the highest rate in the country which is small section of Iowa at $181 that would be 423 acres on a 15 year contract. That’s a 15 year total of $2715 an acre, in country that costs 7-8k acre, And that land grosses $900-1000 an acre if in corn production.

Around me CRP it’s $10-30acre and Land costs 900-2500(w/water well)

I just bought some land in CRP and took it out and put it back into production. CRP contract was $13 an acre. I paid for three years of payments and penalties with one growning season.....


Not exactly easy to defraud or have it fully finance Land. Numbers just don’t work out.

Also vast majority of the subs is crop insurance(a paid into program) and CRP/WRP.



Like I said earlier I’m all about grain following inflation, but Not everyone most is ready or can afford that addittional daily expense. Farm subs cost actual tax payers about $15 a payer, and our food cost half of what it did in 1960....the extreme left EWG doesn’t mention that

I’m off my soap box but just wanted for people to be aware of the real facts.

Note -part of the ag bill was a Land Access Program, called VPA-HIP. It’s a lease program for walk in hunter traffic, out side of a small payment it reduces liability greatly!! I’m a big fan and have talked many of my peers into enrolling, combine it with land conservation fund it it’s a win win. Talk about it, educate everyone. Sell it with passion to anyone that will listen

Don't disagree with your numbers...just to clarify, were you involved in CRP in the late 1980's near Fort Benton Montana, Great Falls Montana, etc?

Do you have any idea what land was "worth" in those areas at that time?

I do...

 

[cuerro viejo]

Don't disagree with your numbers...just to clarify, were you involved in CRP in the late 1980's near Fort Benton Montana, Great Falls Montana, etc?

Do you have any idea what land was "worth" in those areas at that time?

I do...

Nope, not saying it didn’t happen, I’m just saying of the 24 million acres enrolled the extreme, extreme exception isn’t the rule. CRP acrege rates also changes with inflation. That’s all. Nothing more nothing less.

Ducks Unlimited influence is probably the single biggest abusor of the CRP/WRP but that’s a whole other thread.

 

[kicker338]

You guys haven't seen nothing yet, come out west and see the national forest's if you can get around all the locked up gated roads. These roads are not locked up by privet land owners, they are locked up by the national forest. Right off the top of my head I can think of over 20 locked roads in the small forest area I hunt.

 

[CorbLand]

You guys haven't seen nothing yet, come out west and see the national forest's if you can get around all the locked up gated roads. These roads are not locked up by privet land owners, they are locked up by the national forest. Right off the top of my head I can think of over 20 locked roads in the small forest area I hunt.

Have you looked into the reason that they were locked? I tons of roads that where built for logging but are closed when logging is done. Do we need road access to the top of every mountain?

 

[KSP277]

Ducks Unlimited influence is probably the single biggest abusor of the CRP/WRP but that’s a whole other thread.

That’s a fact. DU is a joke.

 

[Joelweb]

Go to the report website on the TRCP webpage and send a letter to your decision makers about LWCF from there. That's the program that funds permanent access acquisition and sending a letter will require no more than 30-seconds of your time. Unlocking Public Lands | Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership

You can also go there to learn more details about the issue...

 

[kicker338]

Have you looked into the reason that they were locked? I tons of roads that where built for logging but are closed when logging is done. Do we need road access to the top of every mountain?

Being 71yrs. old and taking my favorite grand son with me, by the way who has downs syndrome, huh, YES.

 

[CorbLand]

Being 71yrs. old and taking my favorite grand son with me, by the way who has downs syndrome, huh, YES.

Oh that’s right. Your older and won’t be here for much longer...so screw it all up for the generation behind you. We haven’t seen this argument before.


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[NevadaZielmeister]

For what it is worth, In Nevada, you are allowed to trespass in certain situations and then based on duties required by the landowner. Nevada Law States:
"NRS 207.200 Unlawful trespass upon land; warning against trespassing.

1. Unless a greater penalty is provided pursuant to NRS 200.603, any person who, under circumstances not amounting to a burglary:

(a) Goes upon the land or into any building of another with intent to vex or annoy the owner or occupant thereof, or to commit any unlawful act; or

(b) Willfully goes or remains upon any land or in any building after having been warned by the owner or occupant thereof not to trespass,

is guilty of a misdemeanor. The meaning of this subsection is not limited by subsections 2 and 4.

2. A sufficient warning against trespassing, within the meaning of this section, is given by any of the following methods:

(a) If the land is used for agricultural purposes or for herding or grazing livestock, by painting with fluorescent orange paint:

(1) Not less than 50 square inches of the exterior portion of a structure or natural object or the top 12 inches of the exterior portion of a post, whether made of wood, metal or other material, at:

(I) Intervals of such a distance as is necessary to ensure that at least one such structure, natural object or post would be within the direct line of sight of a person standing next to another such structure, natural object or post, but at intervals of not more than 1,000 feet; and

(II) Each corner of the land, upon or near the boundary; and

(2) Each side of all gates, cattle guards and openings that are designed to allow human ingress to the area;

(b) If the land is not used in the manner specified in paragraph (a), by painting with fluorescent orange paint not less than 50 square inches of the exterior portion of a structure or natural object or the top 12 inches of the exterior portion of a post, whether made of wood, metal or other material, at:

(1) Intervals of such a distance as is necessary to ensure that at least one such structure, natural object or post would be within the direct line of sight of a person standing next to another such structure, natural object or post, but at intervals of not more than 200 feet; and

(2) Each corner of the land, upon or near the boundary;

(c) Fencing the area; or

(d) By the owner or occupant of the land or building making an oral or written demand to any guest to vacate the land or building.

3. It is prima facie evidence of trespass for any person to be found on private or public property which is posted or fenced as provided in subsection 2 without lawful business with the owner or occupant of the property.

4. An entryman on land under the laws of the United States is an owner within the meaning of this section.

5. As used in this section:

(a) "Fence" means a barrier sufficient to indicate an intent to restrict the area to human ingress, including, but not limited to, a wall, hedge or chain link or wire mesh fence. The term does not include a barrier made of barbed wire.

(b) "Guest" means any person entertained or to whom hospitality is extended, including, but not limited to, any person who stays overnight. The term does not include a tenant as defined in NRS 118A.170"

So long story short, you can trespass across private land and if the landowner were to see you on the property, would have to ask you to leave. But really, with most parcels I see while out and about, there is no landowner in sight. Also, the checker board patterns visible via Onx Hunt Maps are not really land locking public lands since the Public Lands are completely accessible. I also confirmed this with a Game Warden who confirmed that you can trespass private land if it is not adequately marked. Even if there is a fence, you can cross it if there is no signage.

Just an FYI.

 

[kicker338]

Oh that’s right. Your older and won’t be here for much longer...so screw it all up for the generation behind you. We haven’t seen this argument before.


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Huh yes we have just like the generation befor mine said my generation was screwing things up. We sure did, more whitail alive today than has ever exsisted, some of the best elk hunting the west has ever seen, and now your singing the same old song and dance. By the way please
educate me on how unlocking those locked up forest service roads is going to screw things up???

 

[durangobrad]

You guys haven't seen nothing yet, come out west and see the national forest's if you can get around all the locked up gated roads. These roads are not locked up by privet land owners, they are locked up by the national forest. Right off the top of my head I can think of over 20 locked roads in the small forest area I hunt.

These are some of my favorite places to access national forest.

 

[Trial153]

We need to be careful with our perspective. If we only place value on what we can use then how do we argue for contuined funding and conservation from those people that dont use public land?

The wild places are infinitely valuable because of their wildness and all that it represents. The fact that i cant conveniently acess it doesnt change that value.

 

[tkaldahl2000]

The arguments here are interesting, but not always informative. The purchasing power of grain is half what it used to be, but the purchasing power of my pay check is down too. Somewhere in the middle there is a corporation making bank.

Farmers collect money for crop damage, but won't let a hunter in for less than $10,000 dollars. Ranchers pay a very small amount to graze cattle on BLM land (compared to leasing private) or like the Bundys don't pay at all. My beef is cheaper, but I can't get to the elk I want.

The LWCF is a good start, so let's all work to get it passed. Support RMEF. Don't flame people with different ideas because we all need to work together. As for the subsidy to ConAgra, Carrillo, ADM, and Monsanto... corporations need welfare too.

 

[jm1607]

I had such a random thought when I saw the title of this thread I had to post it. Kinda taken out of context so might just be funny to me lol

I feel like Woody Harrelson @ 1:59 minutes and right after @ 2:16 YouTube

 

[kicker338]

We need to be careful with our perspective. If we only place value on what we can use then how do we argue for contuined funding and conservation from those people that dont use public land?

The wild places are infinitely valuable because of their wildness and all that represents. The fact that i cant conveniently acess it doest change that value.

Agree with this to a point, the wilderness, roadless areas I have no problem with, hiked them, packed into them and would still do it today if I could, age puts a damper on it though.

Gated roads are not wilderness or wild, put on your backpack head down the wild road, be sure and stop and talk to the forest service guy driving the road. Ask him why the road has a locked gate on it and he most likely will say, ask Washington, interior sectary, that's what they all tell me.

 

[BuzzH]

Agree with this to a point, the wilderness, roadless areas I have no problem with, hiked them, packed into them and would still do it today if I could, age puts a damper on it though.

Gated roads are not wilderness or wild, put on your backpack head down the wild road, be sure and stop and talk to the forest service guy driving the road. Ask him why the road has a locked gate on it and he most likely will say, ask Washington, interior sectary, that's what they all tell me.

Kicker338,

Not trying to bust your chops, but the Interior Secretary does not control the Forest Service and not saying you haven't been told that by FS employees. Secretary of Agriculture would be your huckleberry for FS.

I honestly get what you're saying, and IME, there are reasons for gating roads. It can vary from seasonal closures during critical fawning/calving times, to reduce soil erosion, to reduce road maintenance, even to enhance non-motorized recreational opportunities.

I get being old, I get it that there will be a day when I struggle to reach the same places I do now. I'm already hunting differently than I did when I was 20...just the way it is. But, I can assure you, the very last thing I would ever want is to allow easier access, increase motorized access, just so I can get there when I'm old. There's nothing wrong with allowing others to enjoy what you did, and to self reflect that you had your day, had your opportunities. Maybe its someone else's turn.

I do understand your frustration, but if I were you, I would focus on areas you can still reach and enjoy those. There is a lot of motorized access and 380,000 miles of roads on FS lands across the West. I cant help but think you can find new and perhaps even better places to enjoy with your family and friends.

 

[GLB]

I live in a state that flying in by aircraft to get to a good hunting area is very common and necessary to get there. You can also use the rivers to find some of these remote hunting lands. We have few roads in Alaska in comparison to other states so when some complain about access I have to smile. The roads that we do have here will be completely trashed during the hunting season and more roads would mean more of that as well. Most lands that have easy access will be ruined by a few as well a being over populated. Also private land owners should be given the greatest respect for their land.