New rifle build - Need Help!

[Chenube]

I am about to start a new build. I plan to use the gun primarily as a pack gun for western hunts. Antelope and maybe mule deer first. Hopefully sheep and elk shortly after that. I will also use the gun for deer hunting in Georgia, but that is not the intended purpose of the build. I have thought about many different options. I think I would like to go with a short action for weight and because I do not currently have any short action hunting rifles. I have considered the following calibers (short and long action): 280AI, 300WM, 300WSM, 300RCM, 7WSM, 6.5x47 Lapua. I have always liked the 280AI, but it is long action. I also really like the idea of 6.5x47 Lapua. I think it is great for deer, antelope, and sheep, but probably not the gun I want to carry in areas where I may encounter bears.

So, is short action the way to go here? Do any of you with the 300WSM have issues with the low mag capacity or feeding / reloading issues? Has anyone used the 300RCM, and is it a good option to take care of the 300WSM issues? Should I just go with one of the reliable long action calibers and accept the extra weight? Also, I would like to be able to comfortably make shots 500 -600 yard range or longer. I know I can work hard to get closer shots, but I want my rifle to be capable at these distances.

I want to get this right. I am putting a good bit of money into this build:
Defiance Action (Rebel)
Manners Stock (EH2)
Barlien barrel, fluted
Vias muzzle break
Jewell trigger
HS Precision removal mag bottom metal
Talley rings and bases
Likely Swaro Z6 optic

If you have any experience with any of my parts selection and would like give me some advice, I will welcome it.

Thank you so much for your help. It is tuff to make these decisions when you have so much money on the line.
Rees

 

[Ryan Avery]

If you plan to shoot from the prone much I would use a different brake. The vias brake will throw crap in your face and into your optics. I would look at a side ported break like Defensive edge or Seekins.

 

[handwerk]

I'm not sure there is that much real world advantage to picking a short action over a standard.
I'm a model 70 guy, one of my custom jobs is a 280 AI which I think would be a good choice for you. You could loose the brake, get a light contoured barrel and land a little shy of 8lbs and you're ready to take on all the critters on your list. For mine I load 150ttsx's @ 3050 fps and feel it's a great all-arounder.

 

[Justin Crossley]

One thing I would change personally, is the muzzle brake. A Seekins Precision, Defensive edge or American Precision Arms muzzle brake would be better imo.

For caliber, I would also look into the 6.5 SAUM if you want a short action. The 300 wsm will also serve your purpose well I think.

 

[fire arrow]

I guess there are a few questions. What distance do you see your self shooting? Average shoot to long shot.
Other question is what size animal will you be shooting year after year?

If you plan on shooting long distance (out to 1000 yards) with elk on your list every year I would suggest a 300 WM with a 190gr + bullet. Or if you wanted to shoot medium range (500-700) at deer and antelope each year, then the 280AI would be my suggestion from the list you have.

I too would suggest a muscle type break to keep your eyes clear of dirt. I'm saving up some cash for a Stiller Predator Action for a 6.5x284. If you are going to spend this kind of cash give them a look. Not telling you what to do, just a suggestion. When you get your rig post some pictures. Sounds like a great build.

 

[mtnclimber]

if your planning on shooting regularly out to 600 id suggest not getting a swaro and going for a scope that dials in mils or moa instead of using swaros reticle or custom turret.

The custom turret can be handy but its only for 1 specific load and you don't have the ability to adjust for atmospheric conditions.So what if you wanted to change your load or if you go from hunting in georgia at one elevation then going hunting elk in the high country at 8000 feet?

I have a Z5 and have been looking for a company that makes turrets for scopes (like kenton industries) and haven't found 1 yet that makes an moa turret for the swaros and i can't figure out why.

 

[Chenube]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I will definitely take a look at the muzzle breaks that you suggested. As far as animal to hunt. I suspect it will primarily be deer, antelope, and hopefully sheep. I have always been obsessed with sheep hunting. I guess my concern with 6.5 is that I will be in areas that might give me a shot at a bear hunting sheep or goats and not comfortable taking one with a 130-140 grain bullet. 500-700 is probably the longest shot I would ever take, but I would love to be practiced enough to feel comfortable shooting at longer distance even if it is only paper.
As far as scopes go, I have also looked at nightforce, s&b, Leopold, Zeiss, and I have heard that Steiner is about to release something attractive. Many of these scope add quite a bit of weight however.
Mntclimber, I suspect you will have a difficult time finding an moa turret for a Z5, because it has 0.1 mil adjustments (correct me if I am wrong).

So it seems like I heard 280ai, 300wm and 300wsm from several of you. Is there any further voting or any reasons not to use one of these.

 

[fire arrow]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I will definitely take a look at the muzzle breaks that you suggested. As far as animal to hunt. I suspect it will primarily be deer, antelope, and hopefully sheep. I have always been obsessed with sheep hunting. I guess my concern with 6.5 is that I will be in areas that might give me a shot at a bear hunting sheep or goats and not comfortable taking one with a 130-140 grain bullet. 500-700 is probably the longest shot I would ever take, but I would love to be practiced enough to feel comfortable shooting at longer distance even if it is only paper.
As far as scopes go, I have also looked at nightforce, s&b, Leopold, Zeiss, and I have heard that Steiner is about to release something attractive. Many of these scope add quite a bit of weight however.
Mntclimber, I suspect you will have a difficult time finding an moa turret for a Z5, because it has 0.1 mil adjustments (correct me if I am wrong).

So it seems like I heard 280ai, 300wm and 300wsm from several of you. Is there any further voting or any reasons not to use one of these.

From what you have said I would go with the 280AI. I love my 300 mag, and I don't think anyone would complain about bringing to much bullet to the table, but te 280AI will be a great choice. As for the scopes you said you were looking at. I run a NF and absolutely love it, except that it weights one ounce less than a Sherman tank. I also backpack and just said to hell with the weight, if you are in that same boat and do to mind the extra cost then the new MOAR reticle would be my choice. Vortex is a close second, and lighter too with a Talley 2 PC light weight ring and base.

 

[mtnclimber]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I will definitely take a look at the muzzle breaks that you suggested. As far as animal to hunt. I suspect it will primarily be deer, antelope, and hopefully sheep. I have always been obsessed with sheep hunting. I guess my concern with 6.5 is that I will be in areas that might give me a shot at a bear hunting sheep or goats and not comfortable taking one with a 130-140 grain bullet. 500-700 is probably the longest shot I would ever take, but I would love to be practiced enough to feel comfortable shooting at longer distance even if it is only paper.
As far as scopes go, I have also looked at nightforce, s&b, Leopold, Zeiss, and I have heard that Steiner is about to release something attractive. Many of these scope add quite a bit of weight however.
Mntclimber, I suspect you will have a difficult time finding an moa turret for a Z5, because it has 0.1 mil adjustments (correct me if I am wrong).

So it seems like I heard 280ai, 300wm and 300wsm from several of you. Is there any further voting or any reasons not to use one of these.

Can't remember which it is I'll check tonight. Either way I haven't been able to find either a mil or moa turret.. I've even called swaro to ask if they know of anyone or if they will be producing one in the future and all he said was "your outta luck".

My swaro 3.5-18x44 1 inch tube weighs 16oz
My Leupold mark 4 4.5-14x4, moa target turrets with 30mm tube weighs 16oz.

300 wsm is an awesome do it all cartridge. I'm personally more effective at long range with a gun that recoils less and can keep my target in the scope even during and after the shot is fired. If I ever thought I may shoot a bear at long range id go 300wsm over 280ai though.

 

[Chenube]

Well after your replies today, I spoke with both of my potential gunsmiths (Robert Gradous and Joe Collier). They both like the 280ai, but have also suggested the 300wm and 7 rem mag. I guess it is hard to beat the old reliable loads. They also agreed that short action may not save a considerable amount of weight and should not completely dictate caliber (obviously since I now have 3 long actions on the list). I am still looking at Borden and defiance for the action and Manners EH2 for the stock. This is stressful but exciting.

Do any of you use a 280ai for bear? If so what grain bullet and muzzle velocity do you shoot?

This is a great forum. Thank you for the help.

Rees

 

[fire arrow]

A buddy, of a buddy, asked me to work up a load for his 280AI. I suggested the 168 Berger, and I think it was the 180. He said he wanted to go with the light round for more speed. He told me he would never shoot past 400. I used 4831sc and I want to say I was in the neighborhood of 2910fps. I wanted to try other powder but he was happy with the results, and I was able to get a five shot group right at .69, outside to outside spread. I load it .010 off the lands. Unfortunately this put him right at the very limits of his mag internal length. I cant remember, but I think he had a HS lower set up.

I really wanted to use the heavier bullet and stretch it's legs to see what it could do out to 800. O well.

 

[idig4au]

I was in the exact same situation when I decided to build my highend custom mountain rifle, so I know how you feel. I lost many sleepless nights worrying about what to do.

I ended up going with a 300 WSM built on titanium X-treme action. I believe this combo saved about 6 oz off a standard action, if I remember correctly. As others said, the 300 WSM is a great all around caliber and is known for very good accuracy. This was a hard decision for me as I've always used long action calibers. I also considered the 280AI and the 7 mm STW. But in the end, I decided to go for weight savings and have a shorter barrel for a more compact rifle for backpack style hunting.

I'm not a big fan of the Talley ULW after several failures on other rifles. You might to consider Seekin's Alloy or Murphy Precision Ti mounts as well as these appear to be more bomb-proof.

Good luck with your decision. Post up pictures and show it off once its ready.

 

[Kotaman]

I labored over many of the same questions. I ended up going .300 WSM on titanium X-treme action as well. With that said, after hunting with the .300 WSM on a couple hunts decided I wanted less "boom" for the deer size game and smaller and have since ordered a .280 AI. I also have a couple "semi" custom HS Precision rifles in .300 WM and 7mm-08...They're all good but if you plan on chasing big bears or stuff larger than deer sized game go .300 WSM, not that the .280 AI won't work, just that the .300 would be a much better choice.

 

[Chenube]

I was in the exact same situation when I decided to build my highend custom mountain rifle, so I know how you feel. I lost many sleepless nights worrying about what to do.

I ended up going with a 300 WSM built on titanium X-treme action. I believe this combo saved about 6 oz off a standard action, if I remember correctly. As others said, the 300 WSM is a great all around caliber and is known for very good accuracy. This was a hard decision for me as I've always used long action calibers. I also considered the 280AI and the 7 mm STW. But in the end, I decided to go for weight savings and have a shorter barrel for a more compact rifle for backpack style hunting.

I'm not a big fan of the Talley ULW after several failures on other rifles. You might to consider Seekin's Alloy or Murphy Precision Ti mounts as well as these appear to be more bomb-proof.

Good luck with your decision. Post up pictures and show it off once its ready.

idig4au,
I have also thought about the barrel length. What length barrel do you need for the 300wsm and 280AI to get optimal performance in a lightweight rifle? I obviously would like to be around 22"-24" if possible. I have been told that the 280AI needs a longer barrel to achieve the performance most look for in that round.

Also, have you tried to load any of the heavier high BC bullets for your 300wsm? Can you fit a 180 Berger VLD or maybe even a 210grain bullet in the magazine, and will the short action cycle at this OAL?

I was planning to use Talley detachable mounts, but I will take a look at the ones you suggested.
Rees

 

[Chenube]

I labored over many of the same questions. I ended up going .300 WSM on titanium X-treme action as well. With that said, after hunting with the .300 WSM on a couple hunts decided I wanted less "boom" for the deer size game and smaller and have since ordered a .280 AI. I also have a couple "semi" custom HS Precision rifles in .300 WM and 7mm-08...They're all good but if you plan on chasing big bears or stuff larger than deer sized game go .300 WSM, not that the .280 AI won't work, just that the .300 would be a much better choice.

Kotaman,
Same question for you. Did you have any loading issues with your 300WSM related to over all length on higher grain bullets? I plan to shoot around 168gr for the smaller animals (deer, antelope, sheep) if possible, but if I go 300wsm I would like to be able to load larger for bear or elk. Also what barrel lengths did you run on the 300wsm and 280AI. It just makes you wish you had enough money to build a custom gun for every situation. I guess we all wish we could be Craig Boddington from time to time.
Rees

 

[Chenube]

A buddy, of a buddy, asked me to work up a load for his 280AI. I suggested the 168 Berger, and I think it was the 180. He said he wanted to go with the light round for more speed. He told me he would never shoot past 400. I used 4831sc and I want to say I was in the neighborhood of 2910fps. I wanted to try other powder but he was happy with the results, and I was able to get a five shot group right at .69, outside to outside spread. I load it .010 off the lands. Unfortunately this put him right at the very limits of his mag internal length. I cant remember, but I think he had a HS lower set up.

I really wanted to use the heavier bullet and stretch it's legs to see what it could do out to 800. O well.

fire arrow,
I wish you had worked up those as well. I would really like to see some actual data of a 180gr berger out of a 280AI. I don't currently have a ballistic program on my computer, but I think it would be interesting to look at 180gr 7mm bullet velocity and energy compared to 30cal 180gr at 400-600 yards or further.

 

[Shrek]

Chenube , pm Mike at Hells Canyon Armory. He has a 280ai that he shoots long range. He's a member here and I think still a sponsor. I'm a fan of the 280ai. I'm waiting for my 7mm wsm to get back from being rebarreled but I was tempted by the 280ai before this rifle.

 

[idig4au]

idig4au,
I have also thought about the barrel length. What length barrel do you need for the 300wsm and 280AI to get optimal performance in a lightweight rifle? I obviously would like to be around 22"-24" if possible. I have been told that the 280AI needs a longer barrel to achieve the performance most look for in that round.

Also, have you tried to load any of the heavier high BC bullets for your 300wsm? Can you fit a 180 Berger VLD or maybe even a 210grain bullet in the magazine, and will the short action cycle at this OAL?

I was planning to use Talley detachable mounts, but I will take a look at the ones you suggested.
Rees

Mine is 22" finished length. Its a carbon wrapped Satern barrel with 1:11.25 twist.

If you want to run Bergers, you probably want to use a Wyatts extended box to give you a bit more room for the longer seating length. I think this will add about 0.1" in length or so.

My gun is purpose built for sheep and etc and is essentially a 500 yard gun which fits in for my style of hunting. Its shooting 168 grains Barnes TTSX at about 0.25 MOA. I'm not a fan of Bergers mainly because I've shot Barnes bullets forever and have great confidence with their performance on game. I just don't see a reason to try the Bergers....if its not broken, don't fix it!

 

[Jay03]

I built my 280AI with a defiance rebel action, Mcmillan game scout stock with edge fill(similar to the manners), a bartlien #4 spiral fluted 5R barrel, jewel trigger, and pacific tool and gauge wyatts lengh bottom metal. Its a BDL floor plate bottom metal, lighter and less expensive than detachable mag setups. My goal was to build a do all backpack hunting mountain rifle for western game. I mostly bowhunt for elk so deer, antelope, and maybe sheep or a goat someday was its primary use.

I STRONGLY suggest the Defiance action! Its a beautiful work of art. And if you call and order one and specify for a lightweight build they can and will hook you up. I believe my action came in at 24oz if I remember correctly. Thats a long action! ... lighter than a rem700 short action and only 2oz heavier that a titanium action for a lot less money and none of the issues with titanium. I went with 24.5 inch barrel, my gunsmith said each inch after about 23" is only good for about 30-40 fps. No animal will ever know the difference and it carries and handles nice. My rifle weighs in at 6lbs 9oz with talley rings and a basic sling. Not an ultra lightweight but a perfect balance for me and very shootable. It has shot groups in the .3s with 4 shot groups. I mention all this because it sounds like our builds are very similar. I went with spiral fluting from karl kampfeld because the flutes end up longer than straight flutes and reduce the weight a little more.. just another tip. The scope I ended up mounting for now is a zeiss HD5 3-15x42 with lockable target turrets. Its a fairly heavy scope at 17oz but very nice optics. May change that, not sure yet.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Jay can you post up some pics of your rifle? Thinking about getting an edge fill game scout.