New Mexico Elk Hunters (Non Residents)
- Thread starter Gila
- Start date
I grew up in Washington, what’s going on there is criminal, seen the same shit in Oregon and California. Nm has great hunting and reasonable predator control, that’s all in danger now.
wapitibob
WKR
NM is nowhere near changing their system, which would require legislation.
bayoublaster7527
WKR
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2017
- Messages
- 818
I’d add Colorado right behind Washington. Governor just appointed two anti-hunting Sierra Club members to the already sitting Center for Biological Diversity and Animal Welfare Institute reps on the wildlife commission. Those orgs now likely have a 6-person voting bloc on the 11-person commission. Expect to see elimination of mountain lion and black bear hunting in the near future if these appointments survive confirmation in the spring.
UKwildcatfan
Lil-Rokslider
You can't keep your story straight. One post you make it sound like thieves and poachers are the tag holders and happens often. Now, the undesirables are bar flies and it "doesn't happen very often". So which is it?
I am just a resident who came here to hunt and fish now that I am retired. I have not ever used a guide or an outfitter and don’t intend to. I have my own camp and gear. I consider boots on the ground scouting to be a very important and enjoyable part of my hunting. I am no different than the vast majority of other DIY hunters who come to these forums. The Outfitters have taken over New Mexico big-game hunting. As a result, residents and DIY non-residents are seldom successful in the draw for any species. To add insult to injury, the outfitters are using landowner tags taken out of the public draw to hunt the National Forest and BLM lands for Elk.
The outfitters say that all of that e-plus unit wide private property has been opened up for public hunting. Oh really? Well Mr. Outfitter, what if we can’t draw the public tags to hunt those properties? If you go to the New Mexico Outfitters web all you will see is: “The economy this, the economy that” when they are really talking about their own bank accounts. The outfitters bring hate on any hunter who challenges them. There are several trolls that follow my threads and their only purpose is to cause controversy. They attempt to cover up the facts by posting utter nonsense.
Elk management is up for evaluation every four years. The last time was 2022. Every hunter in NM is trying to quash the e-plus crap but the Commission had a “stacked deck” and refused to hear any proposals for change. BHA and NMWF are leading the pack to change eplus. Since the commission became a dead end, hunters decided that the most logical thing to do was to change up the commission and take the appointment power away from the Governor. Enter Senate Bill 5 which was passed in March. The Governor is on her way out because she can’t run for this term. The hunters will have a “new” commission with a more level playing field when the “New” governor arrives next year.
Hunters should have a choice to use an outfitter/guide or not. Landowners should have the choice to get cash money per acre for hunter access or sell hunts to public draw tag holders. If landowners want to contract out to outfitters then that is their own business. The state shouldn’t be giving outfitters welfare in the form of landowner and public draw tags at the hunter’s expense.
nmwildlife.org
www.outdoorhub.com
www.backcountryhunters.org
The outfitters say that all of that e-plus unit wide private property has been opened up for public hunting. Oh really? Well Mr. Outfitter, what if we can’t draw the public tags to hunt those properties? If you go to the New Mexico Outfitters web all you will see is: “The economy this, the economy that” when they are really talking about their own bank accounts. The outfitters bring hate on any hunter who challenges them. There are several trolls that follow my threads and their only purpose is to cause controversy. They attempt to cover up the facts by posting utter nonsense.
Elk management is up for evaluation every four years. The last time was 2022. Every hunter in NM is trying to quash the e-plus crap but the Commission had a “stacked deck” and refused to hear any proposals for change. BHA and NMWF are leading the pack to change eplus. Since the commission became a dead end, hunters decided that the most logical thing to do was to change up the commission and take the appointment power away from the Governor. Enter Senate Bill 5 which was passed in March. The Governor is on her way out because she can’t run for this term. The hunters will have a “new” commission with a more level playing field when the “New” governor arrives next year.
Hunters should have a choice to use an outfitter/guide or not. Landowners should have the choice to get cash money per acre for hunter access or sell hunts to public draw tag holders. If landowners want to contract out to outfitters then that is their own business. The state shouldn’t be giving outfitters welfare in the form of landowner and public draw tags at the hunter’s expense.
Newly Appointed Game Commissioner Calls for Listening Session on EPLUS - New Mexico Wildlife Federation
By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director ALBUQUERQUE – The New Mexico State Game Commission is now up to its full complement of seven members with Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham’s appointment... Read more »
nmwildlife.org
Montana Outfitters Disagree with RMEF’s Board Choice of TV Host | OutdoorHub
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation’s (RMEF) decision to nominate television hunting host Randy Newberg for board member has met with some opposition. According to the Billings Gazette, the RMEF and other associated associations received a concerned email from the Montana Outfitters and Guides...
www.outdoorhub.com
Understanding EPLUS: NM’s Private Land Elk Tag Program
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is the voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife.
www.backcountryhunters.org
I am just a resident who came here to hunt and fish now that I am retired. I have not ever used a guide or an outfitter and don’t intend to. I have my own camp and gear. I consider boots on the ground scouting to be a very important and enjoyable part of my hunting. I am no different than the vast majority of other DIY hunters who come to these forums. The Outfitters have taken over New Mexico big-game hunting. As a result, residents and DIY non-residents are seldom successful in the draw for any species. To add insult to injury, the outfitters are using landowner tags taken out of the public draw to hunt the National Forest and BLM lands for Elk.
The outfitters say that all of that e-plus unit wide private property has been opened up for public hunting. Oh really? Well Mr. Outfitter, what if we can’t draw the public tags to hunt those properties? If you go to the New Mexico Outfitters web all you will see is: “The economy this, the economy that” when they are really talking about their own bank accounts. The outfitters bring hate on any hunter who challenges them. There are several trolls that follow my threads and their only purpose is to cause controversy. They attempt to cover up the facts by posting utter nonsense.
Elk management is up for evaluation every four years. The last time was 2022. Every hunter in NM is trying to quash the e-plus crap but the Commission had a “stacked deck” and refused to hear any proposals for change. BHA and NMWF are leading the pack to change eplus. Since the commission became a dead end, hunters decided that the most logical thing to do was to change up the commission and take the appointment power away from the Governor. Enter Senate Bill 5 which was passed in March. The Governor is on her way out because she can’t run for this term. The hunters will have a “new” commission with a more level playing field when the “New” governor arrives next year.
Hunters should have a choice to use an outfitter/guide or not. Landowners should have the choice to get cash money per acre for hunter access or sell hunts to public draw tag holders. If landowners want to contract out to outfitters then that is their own business. The state shouldn’t be giving outfitters welfare in the form of landowner and public draw tags at the hunter’s expense.
Newly Appointed Game Commissioner Calls for Listening Session on EPLUS - New Mexico Wildlife Federation
By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director ALBUQUERQUE – The New Mexico State Game Commission is now up to its full complement of seven members with Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham’s appointment... Read more »
Montana Outfitters Disagree with RMEF’s Board Choice of TV Host | OutdoorHub
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation’s (RMEF) decision to nominate television hunting host Randy Newberg for board member has met with some opposition. According to the Billings Gazette, the RMEF and other associated associations received a concerned email from the Montana Outfitters and Guides...
Understanding EPLUS: NM’s Private Land Elk Tag Program
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is the voice for our wild public lands, waters and wildlife.
A bunch of word salad with no concrete answers.
Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to be an outfitter (which I am not) to disagree with your positions.
Are you saying that hunters don't have a choice in going outfitted or not currently? You're implying it.
Are you saying that there is no value in the current private property that is free to hunt via E plus?
How much better do you think draw odds will get if the eplus tags and LO tags disappear, note that the numbers will be cut because the available amount of land to hunt will go down.
Please actually answer questions with something besides word salad and feelings.
Even your NMWF piece is misleading. The vast majority of the western states offer LO tags. CO, NV, ID, CA, OR, WA, UT, for starters, difference is that NM is the only state actually offers benefit to the average hunter in trade with access.
Do you folks really want someone like Stumpy here on your commission?
————————-
Stump, the other new commissioner, said after Friday’s meeting he didn’t have any comment on the prospect of the commission taking up the EPLUS issue. The Troutstalker Ranch, where he works as hunt manager, gets elk tags under the EPLUS system.
“This is my first day,” Stump said. “I need to get abreast of everyone’s opinions and I don’t feel it would be appropriate for me to make any kind of statement today.”
Dan Perry, a lawyer originally from Texas, owns the Troutstalker Ranch. He has made substantial campaign contributions to Lujan Grisham’s campaigns.
Perry unsuccessfully opposed legal action by the NMWF and partner organizations to overturn a game commission regulation that purported to allow the commission to certify that rivers and streams crossing private land were not public water, and accordingly were closed to public access.
The New Mexico Supreme Court agreed with NMWF and its partner groups that the game commission regulation violated the state constitution. Chama Troutstalkers, LLC was among the petitioners that unsuccessfully asked the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the New Mexico Supreme Court ruling.
Stump said the legal fight over public water access has nothing to do with him. “It has to be decided in the courts, that’s all I have to say,” he said.
Stump said he hasn’t spoken with Perry about his appointment to the game commission. “It has nothing to do with Dan Perry,” he said.
“I’m interested in serving because I was asked to, and my opinions matter. I’ll keep it at that for now.” Stump said. “I think the game and fish department does a really good job. I’m going to continue to see what they’re doing and how they go about it. I haven’t seen anything that really pushes my buttons at this point.”
Stump said Lujan Grisham asked him to serve on the commission. “I’ve known her for a good amount of time,” he said.
———————————————
No sense in blurring the issue about e-plus unit wide properties. Outfitters have possession of the Unit Wide authorizations flat and simple. They are rolled into guided hunts. Those UNIT WIDE properties are either owned by outfitters, incorporate their own outfitters, or contract out to outfitters. Those authorizations can be bartered as well. If an outfitter has a cancelation, they will sell the authorization to another outfitter. If for some reason it is a last minute cancellation, they might sell it to a resident but only if they have to. It’s all about money. Very few tags are left over to sell to residents. What ends up on Craig’s list are authorizations that have been resold two or three times. Most of the leftovers are from GMUs that have struggling elk herds and/or very low success rates like in unit 9.
The outfitters are quick to say that e-plus opens up private lands to public hunting. Well if a hunter doesn’t draw a tag he won’t be hunting in the GMU period. The odds to draw a mature bull tag in New Mexico are unusually low for residents and DIY non-resident hunters alike. The reason why is because all of those Unit Wide and ranch only tags are subtracted from the public draw. There are some premium hunts in some GMUs with few or no Unit Wide tags. Those hunts will always have lower odds.
There are very few tags allocated to unit 9 these days. The DGF even went to primitive weapons yet the herds are still struggling. There are other units where the elk numbers are in decline. There are multiple reasons why but it’s the cumulative effects that matter. There are some GMUs that have over a hundred Unit Wide landowner tags. Quite a few GMUs have at least as many unit wide tags as there are draw tags for first rifle hunts. Unit Wide LO tags can be used for any season (archery tags are the exception). Most unit wide tags are used for first rifle or first muzzie hunts. What happens is there are up to twice as many hunters out hunting as there are draw tags. In the Gila, those hunts are occurring during the rut. In the Gila units with a high number of unit wide tags, the success rates for first rifle/muzzie have plummeted over the years.
So the question to be answered is how many mature bulls are harvested on public lands with Unit Wide tags? That data is not available from DGF because the harvest reports don’t ask that question. If the question to be asked is how many mature bulls can be taken and still have a successful rut? … that variable is unknown. Trophy quality is an important metric. The DGF is always touting “quality or quantity”. If the success rates for first rifle are declining, that tells me that trophy potential is also declining. I am after sustenance these days over mounts. There is only so much wall space for racks. Quite a few elk hunters live for hunting bugling elk during the rut. I am one of them.
NMWF does not have wrong numbers. Too many people have done the research and come up with the same numbers. The numbers may be off by a little bit but are correct for the most part. From NMWF:
“In cases where hunters hunt public lands with a unit-wide permit they’ve purchased through the EPLUS system, they compete for elk meat and trophies with state residents who have drawn elk licenses through the public license draw system.
In late 2020, the state’s nonpartisan Legislative Finance Committee staff recommended that the game commission make sweeping changes to EPLUS to bring elk management in the state in line with neighboring states that commonly reserve 90 percent of all elk licenses for state residents.
In other states in the West, landowners sell what is theirs to sell: access to hunt their land. Neighboring Arizona, for example, give no landowner tags. Only New Mexico gives publicly owned wildlife to landowners wholesale so they can sell it off to the highest bidder.”
nmwildlife.org
————————-
Stump, the other new commissioner, said after Friday’s meeting he didn’t have any comment on the prospect of the commission taking up the EPLUS issue. The Troutstalker Ranch, where he works as hunt manager, gets elk tags under the EPLUS system.
“This is my first day,” Stump said. “I need to get abreast of everyone’s opinions and I don’t feel it would be appropriate for me to make any kind of statement today.”
Dan Perry, a lawyer originally from Texas, owns the Troutstalker Ranch. He has made substantial campaign contributions to Lujan Grisham’s campaigns.
Perry unsuccessfully opposed legal action by the NMWF and partner organizations to overturn a game commission regulation that purported to allow the commission to certify that rivers and streams crossing private land were not public water, and accordingly were closed to public access.
The New Mexico Supreme Court agreed with NMWF and its partner groups that the game commission regulation violated the state constitution. Chama Troutstalkers, LLC was among the petitioners that unsuccessfully asked the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the New Mexico Supreme Court ruling.
Stump said the legal fight over public water access has nothing to do with him. “It has to be decided in the courts, that’s all I have to say,” he said.
Stump said he hasn’t spoken with Perry about his appointment to the game commission. “It has nothing to do with Dan Perry,” he said.
“I’m interested in serving because I was asked to, and my opinions matter. I’ll keep it at that for now.” Stump said. “I think the game and fish department does a really good job. I’m going to continue to see what they’re doing and how they go about it. I haven’t seen anything that really pushes my buttons at this point.”
Stump said Lujan Grisham asked him to serve on the commission. “I’ve known her for a good amount of time,” he said.
———————————————
No sense in blurring the issue about e-plus unit wide properties. Outfitters have possession of the Unit Wide authorizations flat and simple. They are rolled into guided hunts. Those UNIT WIDE properties are either owned by outfitters, incorporate their own outfitters, or contract out to outfitters. Those authorizations can be bartered as well. If an outfitter has a cancelation, they will sell the authorization to another outfitter. If for some reason it is a last minute cancellation, they might sell it to a resident but only if they have to. It’s all about money. Very few tags are left over to sell to residents. What ends up on Craig’s list are authorizations that have been resold two or three times. Most of the leftovers are from GMUs that have struggling elk herds and/or very low success rates like in unit 9.
The outfitters are quick to say that e-plus opens up private lands to public hunting. Well if a hunter doesn’t draw a tag he won’t be hunting in the GMU period. The odds to draw a mature bull tag in New Mexico are unusually low for residents and DIY non-resident hunters alike. The reason why is because all of those Unit Wide and ranch only tags are subtracted from the public draw. There are some premium hunts in some GMUs with few or no Unit Wide tags. Those hunts will always have lower odds.
There are very few tags allocated to unit 9 these days. The DGF even went to primitive weapons yet the herds are still struggling. There are other units where the elk numbers are in decline. There are multiple reasons why but it’s the cumulative effects that matter. There are some GMUs that have over a hundred Unit Wide landowner tags. Quite a few GMUs have at least as many unit wide tags as there are draw tags for first rifle hunts. Unit Wide LO tags can be used for any season (archery tags are the exception). Most unit wide tags are used for first rifle or first muzzie hunts. What happens is there are up to twice as many hunters out hunting as there are draw tags. In the Gila, those hunts are occurring during the rut. In the Gila units with a high number of unit wide tags, the success rates for first rifle/muzzie have plummeted over the years.
So the question to be answered is how many mature bulls are harvested on public lands with Unit Wide tags? That data is not available from DGF because the harvest reports don’t ask that question. If the question to be asked is how many mature bulls can be taken and still have a successful rut? … that variable is unknown. Trophy quality is an important metric. The DGF is always touting “quality or quantity”. If the success rates for first rifle are declining, that tells me that trophy potential is also declining. I am after sustenance these days over mounts. There is only so much wall space for racks. Quite a few elk hunters live for hunting bugling elk during the rut. I am one of them.
NMWF does not have wrong numbers. Too many people have done the research and come up with the same numbers. The numbers may be off by a little bit but are correct for the most part. From NMWF:
“In cases where hunters hunt public lands with a unit-wide permit they’ve purchased through the EPLUS system, they compete for elk meat and trophies with state residents who have drawn elk licenses through the public license draw system.
In late 2020, the state’s nonpartisan Legislative Finance Committee staff recommended that the game commission make sweeping changes to EPLUS to bring elk management in the state in line with neighboring states that commonly reserve 90 percent of all elk licenses for state residents.
In other states in the West, landowners sell what is theirs to sell: access to hunt their land. Neighboring Arizona, for example, give no landowner tags. Only New Mexico gives publicly owned wildlife to landowners wholesale so they can sell it off to the highest bidder.”
Attention New Mexico Hunters: Speak Up Now to Demand Reform of EPLUS! - New Mexico Wildlife Federation
The New Mexico Department of Game and Fish just announced the draw results for the 2022-23 elk season. As usual, far too many resident hunters got the bad news that... Read more »
nmwildlife.org
How many bulls/ cows are harvested each year in the Secondary Core units in New Mexico? If you are within the secondary core, there are unlimited tags sold with rifle tags in primitive zones from Oct 1- Dec??? How much revenue is made off of this? Does it effect the elk herds?Do you folks really want someone like Stumpy here on your commission?
————————-
Stump, the other new commissioner, said after Friday’s meeting he didn’t have any comment on the prospect of the commission taking up the EPLUS issue. The Troutstalker Ranch, where he works as hunt manager, gets elk tags under the EPLUS system.
“This is my first day,” Stump said. “I need to get abreast of everyone’s opinions and I don’t feel it would be appropriate for me to make any kind of statement today.”
Dan Perry, a lawyer originally from Texas, owns the Troutstalker Ranch. He has made substantial campaign contributions to Lujan Grisham’s campaigns.
Perry unsuccessfully opposed legal action by the NMWF and partner organizations to overturn a game commission regulation that purported to allow the commission to certify that rivers and streams crossing private land were not public water, and accordingly were closed to public access.
The New Mexico Supreme Court agreed with NMWF and its partner groups that the game commission regulation violated the state constitution. Chama Troutstalkers, LLC was among the petitioners that unsuccessfully asked the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the New Mexico Supreme Court ruling.
Stump said the legal fight over public water access has nothing to do with him. “It has to be decided in the courts, that’s all I have to say,” he said.
Stump said he hasn’t spoken with Perry about his appointment to the game commission. “It has nothing to do with Dan Perry,” he said.
“I’m interested in serving because I was asked to, and my opinions matter. I’ll keep it at that for now.” Stump said. “I think the game and fish department does a really good job. I’m going to continue to see what they’re doing and how they go about it. I haven’t seen anything that really pushes my buttons at this point.”
Stump said Lujan Grisham asked him to serve on the commission. “I’ve known her for a good amount of time,” he said.
———————————————
No sense in blurring the issue about e-plus unit wide properties. Outfitters have possession of the Unit Wide authorizations flat and simple. They are rolled into guided hunts. Those UNIT WIDE properties are either owned by outfitters, incorporate their own outfitters, or contract out to outfitters. Those authorizations can be bartered as well. If an outfitter has a cancelation, they will sell the authorization to another outfitter. If for some reason it is a last minute cancellation, they might sell it to a resident but only if they have to. It’s all about money. Very few tags are left over to sell to residents. What ends up on Craig’s list are authorizations that have been resold two or three times. Most of the leftovers are from GMUs that have struggling elk herds and/or very low success rates like in unit 9.
The outfitters are quick to say that e-plus opens up private lands to public hunting. Well if a hunter doesn’t draw a tag he won’t be hunting in the GMU period. The odds to draw a mature bull tag in New Mexico are unusually low for residents and DIY non-resident hunters alike. The reason why is because all of those Unit Wide and ranch only tags are subtracted from the public draw. There are some premium hunts in some GMUs with few or no Unit Wide tags. Those hunts will always have lower odds.
There are very few tags allocated to unit 9 these days. The DGF even went to primitive weapons yet the herds are still struggling. There are other units where the elk numbers are in decline. There are multiple reasons why but it’s the cumulative effects that matter. There are some GMUs that have over a hundred Unit Wide landowner tags. Quite a few GMUs have at least as many unit wide tags as there are draw tags for first rifle hunts. Unit Wide LO tags can be used for any season (archery tags are the exception). Most unit wide tags are used for first rifle or first muzzie hunts. What happens is there are up to twice as many hunters out hunting as there are draw tags. In the Gila, those hunts are occurring during the rut. In the Gila units with a high number of unit wide tags, the success rates for first rifle/muzzie have plummeted over the years.
So the question to be answered is how many mature bulls are harvested on public lands with Unit Wide tags? That data is not available from DGF because the harvest reports don’t ask that question. If the question to be asked is how many mature bulls can be taken and still have a successful rut? … that variable is unknown. Trophy quality is an important metric. The DGF is always touting “quality or quantity”. If the success rates for first rifle are declining, that tells me that trophy potential is also declining. I am after sustenance these days over mounts. There is only so much wall space for racks. Quite a few elk hunters live for hunting bugling elk during the rut. I am one of them.
NMWF does not have wrong numbers. Too many people have done the research and come up with the same numbers. The numbers may be off by a little bit but are correct for the most part. From NMWF:
“In cases where hunters hunt public lands with a unit-wide permit they’ve purchased through the EPLUS system, they compete for elk meat and trophies with state residents who have drawn elk licenses through the public license draw system.
In late 2020, the state’s nonpartisan Legislative Finance Committee staff recommended that the game commission make sweeping changes to EPLUS to bring elk management in the state in line with neighboring states that commonly reserve 90 percent of all elk licenses for state residents.
In other states in the West, landowners sell what is theirs to sell: access to hunt their land. Neighboring Arizona, for example, give no landowner tags. Only New Mexico gives publicly owned wildlife to landowners wholesale so they can sell it off to the highest bidder.”
Attention New Mexico Hunters: Speak Up Now to Demand Reform of EPLUS! - New Mexico Wildlife Federation
The New Mexico Department of Game and Fish just announced the draw results for the 2022-23 elk season. As usual, far too many resident hunters got the bad news that... Read more »
Stumpy has forgotten more about elk and wildlife in NM than you’ll ever know, your group supported a bill that will replace him with an anti hunter who wants more wolves.Do you folks really want someone like Stumpy here on your commission?
————————-
Stump, the other new commissioner, said after Friday’s meeting he didn’t have any comment on the prospect of the commission taking up the EPLUS issue. The Troutstalker Ranch, where he works as hunt manager, gets elk tags under the EPLUS system.
“This is my first day,” Stump said. “I need to get abreast of everyone’s opinions and I don’t feel it would be appropriate for me to make any kind of statement today.”
Dan Perry, a lawyer originally from Texas, owns the Troutstalker Ranch. He has made substantial campaign contributions to Lujan Grisham’s campaigns.
Perry unsuccessfully opposed legal action by the NMWF and partner organizations to overturn a game commission regulation that purported to allow the commission to certify that rivers and streams crossing private land were not public water, and accordingly were closed to public access.
The New Mexico Supreme Court agreed with NMWF and its partner groups that the game commission regulation violated the state constitution. Chama Troutstalkers, LLC was among the petitioners that unsuccessfully asked the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the New Mexico Supreme Court ruling.
Stump said the legal fight over public water access has nothing to do with him. “It has to be decided in the courts, that’s all I have to say,” he said.
Stump said he hasn’t spoken with Perry about his appointment to the game commission. “It has nothing to do with Dan Perry,” he said.
“I’m interested in serving because I was asked to, and my opinions matter. I’ll keep it at that for now.” Stump said. “I think the game and fish department does a really good job. I’m going to continue to see what they’re doing and how they go about it. I haven’t seen anything that really pushes my buttons at this point.”
Stump said Lujan Grisham asked him to serve on the commission. “I’ve known her for a good amount of time,” he said.
———————————————
No sense in blurring the issue about e-plus unit wide properties. Outfitters have possession of the Unit Wide authorizations flat and simple. They are rolled into guided hunts. Those UNIT WIDE properties are either owned by outfitters, incorporate their own outfitters, or contract out to outfitters. Those authorizations can be bartered as well. If an outfitter has a cancelation, they will sell the authorization to another outfitter. If for some reason it is a last minute cancellation, they might sell it to a resident but only if they have to. It’s all about money. Very few tags are left over to sell to residents. What ends up on Craig’s list are authorizations that have been resold two or three times. Most of the leftovers are from GMUs that have struggling elk herds and/or very low success rates like in unit 9.
The outfitters are quick to say that e-plus opens up private lands to public hunting. Well if a hunter doesn’t draw a tag he won’t be hunting in the GMU period. The odds to draw a mature bull tag in New Mexico are unusually low for residents and DIY non-resident hunters alike. The reason why is because all of those Unit Wide and ranch only tags are subtracted from the public draw. There are some premium hunts in some GMUs with few or no Unit Wide tags. Those hunts will always have lower odds.
There are very few tags allocated to unit 9 these days. The DGF even went to primitive weapons yet the herds are still struggling. There are other units where the elk numbers are in decline. There are multiple reasons why but it’s the cumulative effects that matter. There are some GMUs that have over a hundred Unit Wide landowner tags. Quite a few GMUs have at least as many unit wide tags as there are draw tags for first rifle hunts. Unit Wide LO tags can be used for any season (archery tags are the exception). Most unit wide tags are used for first rifle or first muzzie hunts. What happens is there are up to twice as many hunters out hunting as there are draw tags. In the Gila, those hunts are occurring during the rut. In the Gila units with a high number of unit wide tags, the success rates for first rifle/muzzie have plummeted over the years.
So the question to be answered is how many mature bulls are harvested on public lands with Unit Wide tags? That data is not available from DGF because the harvest reports don’t ask that question. If the question to be asked is how many mature bulls can be taken and still have a successful rut? … that variable is unknown. Trophy quality is an important metric. The DGF is always touting “quality or quantity”. If the success rates for first rifle are declining, that tells me that trophy potential is also declining. I am after sustenance these days over mounts. There is only so much wall space for racks. Quite a few elk hunters live for hunting bugling elk during the rut. I am one of them.
NMWF does not have wrong numbers. Too many people have done the research and come up with the same numbers. The numbers may be off by a little bit but are correct for the most part. From NMWF:
“In cases where hunters hunt public lands with a unit-wide permit they’ve purchased through the EPLUS system, they compete for elk meat and trophies with state residents who have drawn elk licenses through the public license draw system.
In late 2020, the state’s nonpartisan Legislative Finance Committee staff recommended that the game commission make sweeping changes to EPLUS to bring elk management in the state in line with neighboring states that commonly reserve 90 percent of all elk licenses for state residents.
In other states in the West, landowners sell what is theirs to sell: access to hunt their land. Neighboring Arizona, for example, give no landowner tags. Only New Mexico gives publicly owned wildlife to landowners wholesale so they can sell it off to the highest bidder.”
Attention New Mexico Hunters: Speak Up Now to Demand Reform of EPLUS! - New Mexico Wildlife Federation
The New Mexico Department of Game and Fish just announced the draw results for the 2022-23 elk season. As usual, far too many resident hunters got the bad news that... Read more »
1st rifle seasons have gotten later and later the last few years and are getting to the tail end of the rut when the mature bulls are off the cows and near impossible to kill.
I’m so confused that I can buy tags today from multiple sources to hunt DIY, yet you continue to say that they only go guided. Either all the guys listing them are lieing or you are.
AZ is one of the few states that doesn’t have LO tags but their elk management has lots of constraints from the ranching community because they see no value in the elk. Do you disagree with that?
How much better do you think odds will get for tags if the UW tags are put back into the draw? Please quantify with numbers, not platitudes.
All of the neighboring states sell LO tags in various numbers except 1, is there a system that’s better besides AZ which has its own issues.
There are very few tags in the public draw for the Secondary Management Zone. Some of the Secondary GMUs do have good elk hunting though. Most of the hunting is on private land. Only private land tags are OTC with no quota. The secondary ranches with good success rates are usually either owned by outfitters or contracted out to outfitters. Some ranches have their own hunt clubs. They can kill a lot of elk if they want to. Once again residents and DIY non-residents get slim pickens.
The DGF gets the actual tag sales. The property owners and the outfitters make money.
Go here to look for the Secondary management zone harvest results:
If gila and wro would of went ahead and private messaged each other, this thread would have died long ago.
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There is a New Mexico resident elk hunter that posted the same information that I did here on another hunting forum. He received the same animus by the same “type” of people. It is not a personal thing here. I think there are a few more non-residents that have become aware of the elk hunting situation in New Mexico as a result of this thread. To that end I have achieved my objective.
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