New build, new arrows ... but what stats?

[moxford]

So I finally ordered a new bow, one that actually fits me since I'm a big guy. My old too-short Golden Eagle from 1996 is finally retired.

My old arrows were already underspined (5575 .400s) with the GE so I need to build some new ones to fit the new rig.

Western hunting, spot and stalk.

I've done all the research on GPI, heads, Ashby, FOC, vanes vs feathers, KE, momentum, penetration, heavy vs light, range estimation, etc etc etc. I have spreadsheets and calcs and everything else (bow is on order so I'm having fun theorycrafting.)

I've also heard that western hunters should try to stay at least around 280 fps. Why 280? Why not 300 or 260? Is it just range-estimation, or something else?

The flight time on 280 vs 220 or even 200 even out to 60 yards is still minimal difference.

Thanks!

 

[Manosteel]

I think the 280fps mark might be a little dated. I have been hunting the west my whole life, bow hunting for the last 20+, and was never to concerned about my speed as long as my arrows flew true with BH's and they had the POI with FP.

With that said all of my rigs over the last 7 years have been flinging arrows over 300FPS, with 400-440gr arrows. I tune all my bow & arrows combo's so that FP & BH hit the same mark out to 80ish, after that there is some difference in elevation, depending on BH.

The 280 mark came from the difficulty some people had with tunning BH to fly straight or hit with FP at distance. That isn't the case so much if you take the time to tune your bow and build your arrows correctly. Search "Ontarget7's" posts from here and AT, he has been able to tune nearly every bow made to perfection. He is also hunting with a rig this year shooting in the 320FPS this year if memory serves.

 

[SDHNTR]

No need to overthink this. Build an arrow of about 425-450 gr for a good compromise between speed and sufficient weight. Any bow today will fling that plenty fast. Dont get too wrapped up on speed. Use a good fixed broadhead (I prefer cut on contact), tune your bow, and pratice. Most other details are mere fodder for mental masterbation and nothing more. I'd take a 450gr arrow going 270 over a 380 gr arrow going 320 any day!

 

[moxford]

I'm not getting wrapped up in speed - actually just the opposite! I'm trying to decide if I want to roll with 200-240 FPS and how much I want to deal with the extra drop at longer ranges.

Theoretical from online calcs and specs...

571@296, 12.54 FOC
737@234, 20.02 FOC <-- What'd you shoot it with? A 737.
837@201, 23.11 FOC

Mass+FOC vs 60 fps. It's probably a difference of about one-seventh to one-tenth of a second of flight at 60 yards. Someone with OT2 can probably give the actual number. Trajectory is a different story.

Finding a build which works for a 32" draw @ 80 lbs has been a challenge. Bow is still on order so this is all just for fun in the meantime. Builds might be way off in reality once a test arrow is actually built and shot. Online calculators are only "so good" but they're good for fun!

 

[5MilesBack]

Finding a build which works for a 32" draw @ 80 lbs has been a challenge.

There's only one arrow I'd use with 32" at 80lbs and that's the GT Kinetic 200's. That's what I use, but at 32 1/2" and 71lbs. They fly great. Stay away from outserts and you'll be fine. I run both HIT's and outserts in mine and hate the outserts. They bend or break off just inside the end of the arrow. The HIT's have been perfect. Unfortunately, I glued the outserts in too well to knock them out so I'll just use those arrows for 3D.

The main reason I never went with an 80lb bow was a lack of good spined arrows for our specs. But since they came out with the 200's, they're good. Or you could also try the Black Eagle Rampage 150's......a log for an arrow.

Mine are 532gr at 286fps out of my Freak.

 

[SDHNTR]

Sweet Jesus! Can you silverbacks scratch your toes without bending over? Lol.

 

[moxford]

There's only one arrow I'd use with 32" at 80lbs and that's the GT Kinetic 200's. That's what I use, but at 32 1/2" and 71lbs. They fly great. Stay away from outserts and you'll be fine. I run both HIT's and outserts in mine and hate the outserts. They bend or break off just inside the end of the arrow. The HIT's have been perfect. Unfortunately, I glued the outserts in too well to knock them out so I'll just use those arrows for 3D.

Yep, they're based on the GT .200s! The BERs (.150) and GrizzlyStiks (.175) were all too heavy on the gpi to get good FOC without really going overboard on weight.

I was going to run the SS BER .150 half-outs for 76gr up front and the extra touch of length since the Kaos only have 30" out of the package, maybe very short length of an Easton 2013 over it as a footer (haven't decided for sure yet.) I have 55/75 HITs in a package right now, and another option are the AeroInserts for 56gr.

Best part is that once you're at .200 for the draw/weight, you can swap the heads from 125gr -> 400gr and they should shoot about the same since the static spine is already so hight.

I actually played with trying to get a GT XXX .150 to work, but I didn't want the huge 0.4xx shaft diameter. =)

Fun stuff!

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Personally I prefer a heavier, slower arrow that's quieter. Stealth over speed for those longer shots.

 

[oldgoat]

Speed is more about how flat they shoot versus how long it takes to get to the animal!!! Faster they are, the less critical judging distance becomes! Tuned setup and just about anything will work!

 

[5MilesBack]

Speed is more about how flat they shoot versus how long it takes to get to the animal!!! Faster they are, the less critical judging distance becomes!

Yep, and after hitting branches four times in the last two years, I wish there was a lighter .200 spine option to get me in the 430-440gr range. This year I even scanned for branches while I was ranging.......nothing within reasonable distance within my shooting window. Shot and immediately heard a THWACK! I couldn't believe it, held the bow up and my 20 pin was all over that branch. Never would have guessed it would be in the way.

Easy to say "just check the pins when you aim", but when you've got a big bull dead to rights in front of you and all you see is vitals behind your pin, the last thing I'm thinking about is checking my top pin. Especially when the branch is nowhere near my line of sight.

 

[Outwest]

I wouldn't worry all too much about arrow speed. As others have said, it may slightly shrink your pin gaps and ever so slightly reduce error on that shot you guessed for 25 but was actually 30. Branches have, and always will be, the downfall of stick flingers everywhere. I agree with 5milesback, you become "branch blind" when you have a bull standing in front of you. Just the way the game is played, I would say that generally, a 300 fps arrow is probably not going to save you from that branch vs a 280 fps arrow.

My advice is to focus on an arrow that has a high FOC (15-20%) and a total arrow weight around 460-520gr. A heavier arrow with a higher FOC% is going to be more stable at longer ranges. This is what I look for in a hunting arrow, anyway. As far as speed goes, I can't even tell you how fast my bow is shooting because I haven't checked. It doesn't really make a difference to me as long as my arrow is accurate and can carry enough energy to get through the animal.

With all that being said, If you can accurately shoot a setup that can fling a 500 gr. arrow at 300 fps or more, by all means, shoot it. Heavy, accurate and slow is good, but heavy, accurate and fast is better.

 

[moxford]

Yeah, if I was shooting less weight or had less draw length (shorter arrow) then getting into the low 500s with good FOC would be doable.
When the base arrow-shaft weight is 348gr all by itself there's just no option to really build up the FOC without pushing the total weight way up.

I'll probably end up with the 737-ish build from above. It has all of the advantages of down-range energy retention, bow-transfer-efficiency, solid FOC, wind-resistance, and momentum at an decent speed. While the faster 571gr arrow is, well, faster, and it will shoot flatter, it trades off quite a bit for that one 62fps advantage.

The arrow and components end up all the same, so I can swap tips and re-zero if I don't end up liking it. =)