Need help for a new custom barrel for hunting: contours, rifling, materials, blank vs prefit, etc

[ssimo]

Hello everyone. I am looking at a barrel for my next custom build. The rifle will be used for hunting up to medium and even long distances (i consider a 450 yards shot a long one for small 50 lbs roe deer) and the overall weight will be between 11 and 10.3 lbs, depending if i will use a bipod. The reputable smith (not the same of my last thread) who will help me in the process suggested me a bartlein or a krieger and i have seen that the general opinion on both of these brands is very good. Being a newbie in custom barrel selection i have a few questions:


1) what is a good contour for both brands? I need a good compromise that will give me reasonable stiffness and not too much weight. Keep in mind that the barrel will be .308, 1:10, 22/24 inches of lenght and i want it threaded at the muzzle. No fluting, no carbon fiber.

2) what is the minimum diameter at the muzzle to have it threaded without compromising integrity and performance?

3) i noticed Bartlein contours tend to have a stronger taper at the end, what are pros and cons of this?

4) any relevant real world difference between a standard rifling and 5R?

5) what about materials? SS or other types of steel?

6) lastly, everyone suggested me a barrel blank instead of a prefit. I am leaning towards a deviant action (which doesn't work with prefits and i don't care about being able to switch barrels by myself) so it seems like a blank is the way to go. If the smith does a good job, what is the advantage of a blank vs a prefit?


Thanks, as always!!

 

[TaperPin]

There is a common misunderstanding of the word prefit. These are not simple screw on barrels - they are either short chambered or long chambered and designed to be fit by a gunsmith. Any action can have a prefit made for it - even the deviant.

A good gunsmith will measure the action and suggest truing parts of it if need be - even some custom actions are not as good as they should be. A crappy gunsmith wont spend any time looking at your action, will use old marginal techniques to set the barrel up for threading, and use an oversized reamer that won’t be as accurate. Their motivation is do it as easily as possible and get paid. Oversized chambers don’t require a lot of cleaning so there is less hand holding and fewer callbacks even though it’s inferior in almost every way. You will be only slightly better than factory accuracy.

All major barrel makers offer a huge variety of barrel contours - look carefully at barrel specs and you’ll see what’s available from different makers is very similar - not exactly industry standards, but close. Often retailers list a small number of barrels and options - it’s much better to go to the makers site.

The quality of technique used to chamber the rifle determins much of its accuracy potential. The most accurate rifles are chambered by gunsmiths that specialize in accuracy and use chamber reamers designed for accuracy. They use many of the same quality of barrels used by general gunsmiths, but a perfect chamber is more accurate.

Tight chambers have less room for carbon fouling buildup so its important to clean at least every 100 rounds or so - and get all the carbon fouling out. The days of only using Hoppies #9 down the barrel are long gone.

Brux, Bartlien, Kreiger are the top barrels based on accuracy records and competitions, but if you aren’t building a 1/8moa rifle other less expensive barrels would also work. Shilen is a lot of bang for the buck same for Hart and a number of others.

I‘ve had a really good barrel with half ass chamber that shot no better than a factory rifle - a waste of money. I’ve also had the same brand and grade of barrel shoot very well with a tighter than normal chamber - 1/2 moa.

 

[Axlrod]

There is a common misunderstanding of the word prefit. These are not simple screw on barrels - they are either short chambered or long chambered and designed to be fit by a gunsmith. Any action can have a prefit made for it - even the deviant.

A good gunsmith will measure the action and suggest truing parts of it if need be - even some custom actions are not as good as they should be. A crappy gunsmith wont spend any time looking at your action, will use old marginal techniques to set the barrel up for threading, and use an oversized reamer that won’t be as accurate. Their motivation is do it as easily as possible and get paid. Oversized chambers don’t require a lot of cleaning so there is less hand holding and fewer callbacks even though it’s inferior in almost every way. You will be only slightly better than factory accuracy.

All major barrel makers offer a huge variety of barrel contours - look carefully at barrel specs and you’ll see what’s available from different makers is very similar - not exactly industry standards, but close. Often retailers list a small number of barrels and options - it’s much better to go to the makers site.

The quality of technique used to chamber the rifle determins much of its accuracy potential. The most accurate rifles are chambered by gunsmiths that specialize in accuracy and use chamber reamers designed for accuracy. They use many of the same quality of barrels used by general gunsmiths, but a perfect chamber is more accurate.

Tight chambers have less room for carbon fouling buildup so its important to clean at least every 100 rounds or so - and get all the carbon fouling out. The days of only using Hoppies #9 down the barrel are long gone.

Brux, Bartlien, Kreiger are the top barrels based on accuracy records and competitions, but if you aren’t building a 1/8moa rifle other less expensive barrels would also work. Shilen is a lot of bang for the buck same for Hart and a number of others.

I‘ve had a really good barrel with half ass chamber that shot no better than a factory rifle - a waste of money. I’ve also had the same brand and grade of barrel shoot very well with a tighter than normal chamber - 1/2 moa.

Some actions that all have the same dimensions can be a true prefit. You still have to check them with go/no go gauges but generally you can screw them on and they are good. PBB has a bunch they do "shouldered" pre fits on.

 

[ssimo]

There is a common misunderstanding of the word prefit. These are not simple screw on barrels - they are either short chambered or long chambered and designed to be fit by a gunsmith. Any action can have a prefit made for it - even the deviant.

A good gunsmith will measure the action and suggest truing parts of it if need be - even some custom actions are not as good as they should be. A crappy gunsmith wont spend any time looking at your action, will use old marginal techniques to set the barrel up for threading, and use an oversized reamer that won’t be as accurate. Their motivation is do it as easily as possible and get paid. Oversized chambers don’t require a lot of cleaning so there is less hand holding and fewer callbacks even though it’s inferior in almost every way. You will be only slightly better than factory accuracy.

All major barrel makers offer a huge variety of barrel contours - look carefully at barrel specs and you’ll see what’s available from different makers is very similar - not exactly industry standards, but close. Often retailers list a small number of barrels and options - it’s much better to go to the makers site.

The quality of technique used to chamber the rifle determins much of its accuracy potential. The most accurate rifles are chambered by gunsmiths that specialize in accuracy and use chamber reamers designed for accuracy. They use many of the same quality of barrels used by general gunsmiths, but a perfect chamber is more accurate.

Tight chambers have less room for carbon fouling buildup so its important to clean at least every 100 rounds or so - and get all the carbon fouling out. The days of only using Hoppies #9 down the barrel are long gone.

Brux, Bartlien, Kreiger are the top barrels based on accuracy records and competitions, but if you aren’t building a 1/8moa rifle other less expensive barrels would also work. Shilen is a lot of bang for the buck same for Hart and a number of others.

I‘ve had a really good barrel with half ass chamber that shot no better than a factory rifle - a waste of money. I’ve also had the same brand and grade of barrel shoot very well with a tighter than normal chamber - 1/2 moa.

Very interesting reply. Thanks. So now i know i have to make sure my smith won't use an oversized reamer but a specific one. And so, if major work has to be done anyway by the smith, what are the benefits and disadvantages of a prefit barrel?

I know that the choice of the gunsmith is very important here. I don't live in the US where you have many very good ones. I live in Italy and there are fewer ones, but apparently very good ones. I have two main options: the first one os called GAC (grande armeria camuna), he has very good reputation here in Italy, as far as i understand at their facility they produces some precision rifles for italian special forces and they also sell them in other countries. Every feedback i have had from them was great and they give a half MOA guarantee with all the rifles they prodices but he said that getting also a quarter MOA with a good shooter, ammo and setup is very common. I already talked with the smith and he seems cery chili but knowledgeable. The kinf od person i like, i don't like people full of themselves.

The second option is someone most of you know. Flavio Farè. He lives and works more or less one hour from my house. I will talk with him on monday.

 

[HandgunHTR]

There is a common misunderstanding of the word prefit. These are not simple screw on barrels - they are either short chambered or long chambered and designed to be fit by a gunsmith. Any action can have a prefit made for it - even the deviant.

In today's world, the word "prefit" when talking about barrels means exactly that. They are "pre" fit so that all you have to do is torque them on, check headspace and you are good to go. Anyone selling a short or long chambered barrel as a prefit is not doing it correctly. There are some who are calling barrel nut - type barrels prefits, but for those, the barrel nut is what you use to set headspace, so technically they are correct.

To answer the OP's question, the main difference between prefits and barrel blanks is that with prefits you can do the work of installing the barrel yourself without having to do any machining. Since you are planning on using a smith anyway, just get the blank and have them do the work. That way you can get the headspace you want, rather than what you get. I prefer the absolute minimum headspace. The other advantage of getting a blank and having your smith do the work is that you can adjust the specs of the chambering to your liking more easily. For example if you want to shoot heavy barrels, you can have them put a bit more freebore in it. The prefit places will do this, but it is usually at additonal cost, whereas with a smith doing the chambering from scratch, they usually don't charge extra for "custom" requests.

In regards to contour, for what you are looking for, the Bartlein 3 or 3B will be just fine. You will be able to get it threaded to the metric equivelent of 5/8-24 and still have a good shoulder for a suppressor (which is why I assume you want to thread it).

 

[TaperPin]

Prefit barrels are less expensive to install. It takes far less time for a gunsmith to adjust one for headspace with very little lathe work. The quality of the chamber depends on the company cutting threads and chambers - not always threaded by the barrel maker, but sometimes it is. Modern CNC machines can make prefits quickly and efficiently.

It sounds like you have some good choices.

You will find there is a cost vs accuracy range. The low cost option will be a prefit installed by a less well known gunsmith - it’s inexpensive but the odds are might be 50/50 it would shoot 1/2 moa. A better gunsmith will do a better job, be more expensive and the odds of 1/2 moa are better - maybe 80% or 90%. Companies with a 1/2 moa guarantee are even more expensive, but you will get a good shooting rifle.

 

[ssimo]

In today's world, the word "prefit" when talking about barrels means exactly that. They are "pre" fit so that all you have to do is torque them on, check headspace and you are good to go. Anyone selling a short or long chambered barrel as a prefit is not doing it correctly. There are some who are calling barrel nut - type barrels prefits, but for those, the barrel nut is what you use to set headspace, so technically they are correct.

To answer the OP's question, the main difference between prefits and barrel blanks is that with prefits you can do the work of installing the barrel yourself without having to do any machining. Since you are planning on using a smith anyway, just get the blank and have them do the work. That way you can get the headspace you want, rather than what you get. I prefer the absolute minimum headspace. The other advantage of getting a blank and having your smith do the work is that you can adjust the specs of the chambering to your liking more easily. For example if you want to shoot heavy barrels, you can have them put a bit more freebore in it. The prefit places will do this, but it is usually at additonal cost, whereas with a smith doing the chambering from scratch, they usually don't charge extra for "custom" requests.

In regards to contour, for what you are looking for, the Bartlein 3 or 3B will be just fine. You will be able to get it threaded to the metric equivelent of 5/8-24 and still have a good shoulder for a suppressor (which is why I assume you want to thread it).

Thanks, very informative. Could you school me in a few words what I should know about headspacing in order to decide the specs to tell to my smith? I don't know much about headspacing ahah!

It's not for the suppressor cause now they are illegal here in my country. I wouldn't use them anyway since i shoot mostly low recoiling and not so loud carteidges and i don't like the additional weight. I also can shoot only one animal at a time so most of the advantages of a suppressor for me wouldn't be worth the weight. This is only on paper with ZERO first hand experience. There is the possibility that in the bear future suppressors will be legal here so anyway i want a thread to be able to try one out if i will be given the chance to by law in the future. So the thread would be for this and possibly for a brake in case i decide to put it on. In other words, i just want the possibility to nount stuff to my muzzle

 

[ssimo]

Prefit barrels are less expensive to install. It takes far less time for a gunsmith to adjust one for headspace with very little lathe work. The quality of the chamber depends on the company cutting threads and chambers - not always threaded by the barrel maker, but sometimes it is. Modern CNC machines can make prefits quickly and efficiently.

It sounds like you have some good choices.

You will find there is a cost vs accuracy range. The low cost option will be a prefit installed by a less well known gunsmith - it’s inexpensive but the odds are might be 50/50 it would shoot 1/2 moa. A better gunsmith will do a better job, be more expensive and the odds of 1/2 moa are better - maybe 80% or 90%. Companies with a 1/2 moa guarantee are even more expensive, but you will get a good shooting rifle.

Thanks. The smith i already talked to is quite expensive, a lot actually. I don't care, i have a good job and i give much more importance to getting something of good quality which mlst likely won't give me issues in the future and will probably last many years, than taking a chance.

Thanks to this theead i just realized i eill have to decide the headspacing and chamber dimensions now I have to figure out what it is btw! I will shoot either facrory and handloaded ammo (mostly factory if i will be pleased with accuracy and ballistic) in the 150-180 grain with my absolute favourite being 165 and 168 grainers.

 

[hereinaz]

Thanks. The smith i already talked to is quite expensive, a lot actually. I don't care, i have a good job and i give much more importance to getting something of good quality which mlst likely won't give me issues in the future and will probably last many years, than taking a chance.

Thanks to this theead i just realized i eill have to decide the headspacing and chamber dimensions now I have to figure out what it is btw! I will shoot either facrory and handloaded ammo (mostly factory if i will be pleased with accuracy and ballistic) in the 150-180 grain with my absolute favourite being 165 and 168 grainers.

You don’t have to concern yourself with most of your questions.

All you have to do is tell the smith what factory cartridge you want to shoot if you are buying factory ammo or hand loaded ammo with the same bullets.

Prefit, chamber dimensions. headspace, and all that are irrelevant to you. You are not doing a custom caliber or hand loading outside of the factory specs.

Gun and ammunition makers have agreed chamber and ammo specs. He will have a standard reamer that he uses for everyone else like you who is building a rifle.

KrIeger or Bartlein are amazing barrels. You won’t notice a difference between rifling types. Both win matches for accuracy.

Your smith can tell you about weight, but I think a sporter or heavy sporter will work to get you there. It also depends on the length of the barrel.

 

[Marbles]

5/8-24 threads with 0.725 minimum diameter for a good shoulder is best from a threading perspective, but there are other ways to skin that cat. You can have the tapper flared at the end, or a bushing installed, or thread smaller.

 

[ssimo]

You don’t have to concern yourself with most of your questions.

All you have to do is tell the smith what factory cartridge you want to shoot if you are buying factory ammo or hand loaded ammo with the same bullets.

Prefit, chamber dimensions. headspace, and all that are irrelevant to you. You are not doing a custom caliber or hand loading outside of the factory specs.

Gun and ammunition makers have agreed chamber and ammo specs. He will have a standard reamer that he uses for everyone else like you who is building a rifle.

KrIeger or Bartlein are amazing barrels. You won’t notice a difference between rifling types. Both win matches for accuracy.

Your smith can tell you about weight, but I think a sporter or heavy sporter will work to get you there. It also depends on the length of the barrel.

Great news, thanks. For example, if i say i want to shoot mostly factory ammo around 165 gr with a boat tail design, like berger hybrids, he will have enough info to decide the custom dimentions of the chamber? That's very cool

 

[ssimo]

5/8-24 threads with 0.725 minimum diameter for a good shoulder is best from a threading perspective, but there are other ways to skin that cat. You can have the tapper flared at the end, or a bushing installed, or thread smaller.

Thanks. So basically i should look for barrels with at least 0.725 diameter at the muzzle with a 308 bore and 22 inch barrel? For curiosity, what are the reasons not to go thinner?

 

[Marbles]

Thanks. So basically i should look for barrels with at least 0.725 diameter at the muzzle with a 308 bore and 22 inch barrel? For curiosity, what are the reasons not to go thinner?

Read this. https://www.longriflesinc.com/colle...vices-muzzle-threading?variant=40673240940704

You can go thinner. But you either run the risk of the muzzle belling (lots of people don't report that issue) or not having adequate shoulder (can be delt with in various ways).

My 308 will be threaded in 9/16-24 to allow for adequate shoulder on a T3x lite barrel while avoiding the risk of belling. I will use a Precision Armament adapter with red loctite to get to 5/8-24 threads with adequate shoulder.

My 223 is getting 1/2-28 threads and well have a 5/8-24 adapter as well.

There are lots of ways to skin the cat. Talking with your smith is the answer if you prefer not to dig and read.

 

[ssimo]

Read this. https://www.longriflesinc.com/colle...vices-muzzle-threading?variant=40673240940704

You can go thinner. But you either run the risk of the muzzle belling (lots of people don't report that issue) or not having adequate shoulder (can be delt with in various ways).

My 308 will be threaded in 9/16-24 to allow for adequate shoulder on a T3x lite barrel while avoiding the risk of belling. I will use a Precision Armament adapter with red loctite to get to 5/8-24 threads with adequate shoulder.

My 223 is getting 1/2-28 threads and well have a 5/8-24 adapter as well.

There are lots of ways to skin the cat. Talking with your smith is the answer if you prefer not to dig and read.

As soon as i finish this fu..ing night shift in the hospital i will read, thanks.
I also have to figure out what "belling" means, little bit of linguistic barrier here

 

[Marbles]

As soon as i finish this fu..ing night shift in the hospital i will read, thanks.
I also have to figure out what "belling" means, little bit of linguistic barrier here

If the steel is too thin, under pressure it will stretch out resulting in the bore being a larger diameter under the threads (widening like a bell), you would not be able to see this with the eye, but it can be measured and allegedly effects accuracy. Lower pressure rounds are less prone to it.

Threading took me several days to wrap my head around and I just recently did a bunch of reading on it.

A square shoulder is what lets a threaded on device be concentric to the bore. Consequently enough left over diameter is needed behind the threads to enable this squaring up.

 

[ssimo]

If the steel is too thin, under pressure it will stretch out resulting in the bore being a larger diameter under the threads (widening like a bell), you would not be able to see this with the eye, but it can be measured and allegedly effects accuracy. Lower pressure rounds are less prone to it.

Threading took me several days to wrap my head around and I just recently did a bunch of reading on it.

A square shoulder is what lets a threaded on device be concentric to the bore. Consequently enough left over diameter is needed behind the threads to enable this squaring up.

Makes sense. The more you go into the rabbit hole, the more stuff pops up! It never ends, love it! I think that the barrel manifacturer will be able to bring me in the right direction.

 

[ssimo]

So: krieger or Bartlein? Bartlein look to have more taper, pros and cons?

 

[FLShooter293]

Here’s a good article on barrel/thread diameter for when your shift ends

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2021/07/barrel-end-threading-bigger-diameter-is-better/

 

[ssimo]

Here’s a good article on barrel/thread diameter for when your shift ends

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2021/07/barrel-end-threading-bigger-diameter-is-better/

I read it, thanks. Still most of the muzzlebrakes and silencers are threaded for 5/8, i think i will have to ask all these details to the barrel manufacturer. Now i just have to decide between Krieger and Bartlein. Krieger, with the lower taper of their barrels, seem to give more margin for muzzle threading.

 

[Mike D Texas]

So: krieger or Bartlein? Bartlein look to have more taper, pros and cons?

I have both and generally speaking the Krieger is more consistent and accurate.

As to traditional rifling vs 5R, the main advantage is less fouling and easier cleaning. There is the possibility of higher velocity (slightly) but that hasn’t been proven to be positive, at least not enough for me.


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