Mountain Pistols?

[BigAntlerGetter]

Im carrying my rossi ranch hand 44 mag to camp this yr, i can lau down 6 shots pretty quick with it plus have it on my pack for easier access without the weight on my belt, It jus feels quicker to me than a revolver, i dont hace any semi autos or i would carry those

 

[afteamroper]

I cannot find that anywhere in the regs, everyone carries up here, and when I got checked last year I had a pistol on my hip and he didn't even mention it. I will have to call and find out I guess...

JOe

I am also from MT just on Active Duty in the US Air Force stationed in SD. I also carry all the time and most game wardens will let it go I was just making everyone aware of it. It is on Page 13 of the Big game regulations under Methods and Means of Hunting heading. This is what it says:

• Lawful Archery Equipment: It is illegal to possess, while hunting big game during any Archery Only Season and in archery equipment only areas, archery equipment that does not meet the following criteria

If I am reading it wrong let me know but that is how we have allways read it and still carry.

 

[squeekieslayer]

I am also from MT just on Active Duty in the US Air Force stationed in SD. I also carry all the time and most game wardens will let it go I was just making everyone aware of it. It is on Page 13 of the Big game regulations under Methods and Means of Hunting heading. This is what it says:

• Lawful Archery Equipment: It is illegal to possess, while hunting big game during any Archery Only Season and in archery equipment only areas, archery equipment that does not meet the following criteria

If I am reading it wrong let me know but that is how we have allways read it and still carry.

I think you are reading it wrong... that says "archery equipment that does not meet the following criteria...." not "weapons" that do not meet the criteria. They are using that to define legal bows, and longbows, and (fortunately) exclude crossbows or other devices that give an advantage or hold it at draw. Maybe I am wrong.

Joe

 

[afteamroper]

I think you are reading it wrong... that says "archery equipment that does not meet the following criteria...." not "weapons" that do not meet the criteria. They are using that to define legal bows, and longbows, and (fortunately) exclude crossbows or other devices that give an advantage or hold it at draw. Maybe I am wrong.

Joe

No you are 100% correct I just called the main office and they changed the regs so you can now carry a firearm during archery season for self defense just dont have a bullet hole in your kill My bad for not reading the new regs correctly

 

[worx53]

Great gun.... terrible load if worried about big bears. Hollow points will not penetrate worth a crap on a skull. Especially at only 240 grains. I have read of hard casts and rifle loads deflecting off of skulls so my guess is a hollow point wouldn't stand a chance. If people are what you are worried about I guess the would work fine.

Joe

They work pretty good as an all around load. I would load it with 300 grainers in Big bear country but 240's take care of a pretty big Blacky no problem...not what I "read" but what I've seen. Considering lots of guys are toting 9's with 115 grain solids, I'd say its quite a step up imo .

 

[squeekieslayer]

They work pretty good as an all around load. I would load it with 300 grainers in Big bear country but 240's take care of a pretty big Blacky no problem...not what I "read" but what I've seen. Considering lots of guys are toting 9's with 115 grain solids, I'd say its quite a step up imo .

Hey I agree.... but like I said, BIG bears. Hell I don't even worry about lugging it around when I am only in black bear country. I only carry when I am in grizz country..... and where I live now, that is pretty much everywhere I go, including many sagebrush flats hahaha. Compared to Ak even those aren't "big bears.

Joe

 

[Daniel_M]

You fellas that do things differently with Black vs Brown/Grizz.....realize Black bears can and do kill at just as much of a statistical rate than a Brown Bear. Personally, I'm much more on my guard for black bears that I am for a grizz. In my experience, while neither are predictable, grizz are more by the book.

 

[Snyd]

The OP is asking about a "Mountain Gun". That rules out a lot of guns guys are talking about here. Leave the 380's and nines at home. Even the snubbie 357 is iffie.

Stopping a 4 legged critter is different than stopping a 2 legged critter. Rifles are different than handguns. Handguns don't reach the velocity that rifles do so cast boolits and jacketed bullets act differently in a handgun. Wide Flat Nose or Long Flat Nose cast boolits are intended to poke long, straight big holes in lots of flesh and bone and retain their shape. Jacketed hollow points (bonded or not) are designed to expand and stop inside the body. For 4 legged critters we want the boolit to penetrate hide, muscle bone, vitals, etc. and make an exit hole no matter what angle it hits the critter. Granted, the hollow point in the PROPER load in the PROPER handgun with the PROPER shooter can kill thin skinned game like say whitetails or even a blackie. But, he usually has the luxury of shot placement. In a defensive situation with something that can bite back, we will probably not have that luxury. The LAST thing we want is to shoot a bear, cougar, lion, etc. in the shoulder or chest with a 230gr Golddot 45. (I do however carry those in my social gun). If the boolit hits the shoulder say at a quartering facing shot, we want it to bust the length of the critter, take out the vital and who know, maybe even bust out the far side hip joint while it's at it. That ain't gonna happen with a hollowpoint. That's a job for a heavy hard cast boolit.

A handgun is a drill, a punch press. The typical handgun cartridge from the 357 up to the 500 Linebaugh and between will make a long, straight hole if one shoots a "heavy for caliber" cast boolit of the proper design. These work best when shot at 1100-1400 fps with 1200fps being the "standard". But, it depends on the caliber and the weight. A 525gr .512 boolit (500 Linebaugh) at 1100fps will out penetrate a 360gr .452 shot at 1400fps. It all comes down to physics. A BEEG HEAVY "SLOW" boolit will do the job. In the words of John Linebaugh… (paraphrased) "Caliber and boolit weight are the only constants. Everything else is a constantly diminishing variable" like velocity and a hollow point that sheds weight.

I'll not get into the 460 and 500 Smiths. Since they are X-Frames one could argue that they aren't really a "Mtn gun". Definitely not a gun you're gonna pack on your hip for very long. But, that's a whole different thread. They have thier place but don't seem to fit in this conversation about a backup "Mountain gun"

The breakdown is something like this for "heavy for caliber" cast boolit.

357 mag - 200gr
44 mag - 300-320 gr (depends on gun if it can handle longer boolits)
45 Colt (Ruger only loads) and 454 Casull - 350-360gr
480 Ruger - 420ish
475 Linebaugh 450ish
500 Linebaugh - 450-525

Any of the above boolits at 1100-1200fps will do the job. 454, 475L and 500L will push the heavies to about 1400. Remember, if the boolit hits the hide at .452-.510 there is no need for it to expand to make a larger diameter hole. It's already as big as an expanded 30 cal. In fact we don't want it to expand, we want it to hold it's shape and weight and penetrate. If we push them too hard there is a point where there is less penetration at the higher velocity. Again it depends on boolit design… nose profile and hardness. Don't get hung up on velocity with handguns. It translates to higher pressure, recoil, etc. and doesn't do much more than kick in the testosterone. We're not dealing with a rifle.

Here is an example of a boolit I cast that I shot from my 4" 454 Redhawk (custom conversion from a 45 Colt). This load is just under 1300 fps, 355gr, hit the steel at 25 yds. Made a nice hole. I can shoot this target all day long with 45 acp 230gr hp or 200gr SWC's and they just spin the target.

I shoot the same boolit in my 45 Colt Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter at 1200fps for hunting. I've been trying to connect on moose or bear. Came close but still trying. This load will go through 36-48 inches of critter easy.

Bottom line is pick a gun/caliber that can shoot at minimum, a 200gr hardcast at 1100-1200 fps that you will pack and that you can shoot! Shoot it a LOT. Get what you want as far as SA, DA revolver or an auto. Whatever it is, shoot a few hundred pounds of cast boolits in it and then you might stand a chance of stopping that charging critter that wants to eat you alive…slowly… you know… the ones that are out there…waiting…..watching.... ready to pounce....

For most guys the first shot will probably be a miss but the noise and muzzle blast will probably be enough to turn the critter.

In the lower 48 I'd probably pack Ruger blackhawk 45 Colt with a 1200fps 300gr load or a SP101 357 mag, 4" barrel with 200gr hardcast. If I were gonna go with an auto probably a glock 10mm with the right load. Close to a 41 mag but not quite. But I don't care much for brass flingers.

Took it sheep hunting last week but could'nt close the gap any more that 277yds. My buddy took the ram with his 270.

 

[squeekieslayer]

You fellas that do things differently with Black vs Brown/Grizz.....realize Black bears can and do kill at just as much of a statistical rate than a Brown Bear. Personally, I'm much more on my guard for black bears that I am for a grizz. In my experience, while neither are predictable, grizz are more by the book.

They kill more people.... but there are hundreds of tmes as many and live in places way more populated than griz... so they have more encounters. I am not arguing at all, I agree that it is dumb that I don't carry for both. I always carry spray, just when griz possible I carry spray and gun. Makes me feel safer.... but the fact is I doubt I could hit anything coming at me with a gun anyway, the piss running down my legs would destroy the small amount I skill I have with a pistol hahaha

Joe

 

[Mike7]

Great summary of the important factors Snyd. Thanks.

 

[Snyd]

I think with either pistol or rifle, the bullet construction is the most important factor (well, right behind weapon reliability). Pistol calibers suck when it comes to terminal ballistics to begin with, so if we're talking pistols (and really even rifles for that matter) I want a bullet that is going to penetrate deep, expand, and retain mass if I'm facing a charging bear. I need to hit the CNS if I expect the real "stopping power".

That's why I mentioned earlier that I don't necessarily feel undergunned with a G19...as long as it's loaded with something like Speer Gold Dot. In a perfect world, I'd have my AR with bonded soft points. I know what I can do with a carbine, and I'd pick that over a pistol or shotgun any day of the week. That's just me though.

Save the hollow points for the 2 legged critters. Ditch the nine and get a 357 mag with some 200gr hard cast if you want to shoot a .356-.358

I too prefer my carbine but sometimes it's not practical to carry so I pack the 454 Redhawk. Here's my pair. My 454 Casull carbine shoots a 355gr .452 WFN at 1600-1700fps depending on the load. 10 in the tube. This is a load I worked up that shoots great in both guns. This is at 50 yds. Same load both guns.

Here's the pair...

 

[jmez]

Thanks for a very well reasoned and informative post Snyd.

 

[MAT]

Good info but many of you missed the main point, I really need a C&C sized pistol as I am backpacking and every ounce counts. If you look at this site:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html

A 158 grn .357 slug will go 914 fps out of a 2" barrel, 1132 fps out of a 3". Barrel length matters A LOT, esp energy so a 9mm could outdo a .40 if it had a longer barrel. What I'd like to figure out is the best caliber based on KE in a C&C sized handgun. Unfortunately they don't list the KE results only a graph, which would be the only way to compare different calibers/loads.

The HP bullet info for critters is very good food for thought, thanks.

 

[Snipershirt]

When it comes to defense, I would not classify weight as a variable for decision making. Just my .02!

I agree!

 

[Mike7]

My Glock 20 weighs 27 oz. Add 11.5 oz for the mag with 13 DT hardcast rounds. It will easily fit with room to spare in a Kifaru Medium belt belt pouch and no one knows its there. I personally don't think a little over 2 lbs is that much wt, considering the fire power and shootability of this.

 

[realunlucky]

I love my glock20 but its not a cc pistol

 

[Snyd]

Good info but many of you missed the main point, I really need a C&C sized pistol as I am backpacking and every ounce counts. If you look at this site:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/index.html

A 158 grn .357 slug will go 914 fps out of a 2" barrel, 1132 fps out of a 3". Barrel length matters A LOT, esp energy so a 9mm could outdo a .40 if it had a longer barrel. What I'd like to figure out is the best caliber based on KE in a C&C sized handgun. Unfortunately they don't list the KE results only a graph, which would be the only way to compare different calibers/loads.

The HP bullet info for critters is very good food for thought, thanks.

Forget about Kinetic Energy when it comes to handguns. We can't push bullets near as fast as we can with a rifle. Forget about street guns and loads that are meant for people. Forget about feet per second. It's a small part of the equation. Forget the 158gr in a 357. Forget about hollow points, they aren't reliable. Learn about Handgun Hunting Loads. You want bullet mass and a properly designed boolit. What you want is penetration. There is no such thing a "knock down power", "shock power", "internal kinetic energy" or whatever you want to call it with a handgun. A handgun is a hole punch. The bigger the heavier the flat nose boolit the longer and bigger the hole it will make.

A 200gr 357 at 1100fps like the corbon will penetrate hide, flesh, bone and go through a critter. A lighter, faster hp won't make a long enough hole and just piss off the 4 legged critter.

Forget about 16 or 19 rnds in the mag and "spray and pray". I'll take 5 hunting loads over 16 people loads any day.

Educate yourself. Start with the writings of John Linebaugh.
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/common_sense_handgun_hunting.htm

If you want to pack a small 357 DA revolver I'd look at the Ruger SP101 with the 4" barrel or a GP100. Those guns will handle heavy for caliber 357 loads in a nice package. 4" barrel is a good size for a belt gun. No matter what the caliber. Or get a S&W but the Rugers are stronger.

http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/specSheets/5771.html

This load will do the job. If you cast and/or load your own you could make em yourself.

http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/ht357200hc-20

Caliber: 357 Mag
Bullet Wt.: 200gr CORBON Hunter HC

 

[Ironman8]

Snyd,

Interesting stuff. I've looked at terminal ballistics alot, but have to admit that they are really meant for people moreso than animals. That said, seeing what a 124gr Gold Dot does through car windshield (which is pretty dang tough stuff) and then through a medium (gelatin) begs the question: What part of that doesn't apply to an animal?

Sure you may get 20+ inches of penetration with cast bullet, but as you (and I) have said, handgun rounds suck to begin with. It's a compromise regardless of what threat you're trying to put down. The only real "stopping power" is a CNS hit ("switch")...other than that all you're doing his hitting "timers".

Also, personally, I'd rather carry something that I'm familiar with and train with extensively. Spraying and Praying has more to do with your level of training than how may rounds are in the gun. Not arguing or saying you're wrong btw, it's a good discussion to have.

 

[fillthefreezer]

dont forget the importance of listening when the man talking says boolit! i freakin looovvvee that converted redhawk

 

[gethuntin]

Snyd in your opinion what would you take to the woods a 357 mag with 200gr casts or a 10mm with casts disregarding preference for wheel guns over auto just on straight performance? Been debating between the two but haven't had much time to research cast loads and ballistics between the two.