Mountain fitness for Dad

[tdcour]

Dad and I drew a high country muley tag in CO again this year. We have hunted a handful of times in the area and Dad always seems to lose his legs after a few days. He will be 65 this year and still getting up to 13k elevation, so he is definitely no slouch. He hits the gym 5 days a week, but again, after a few days going on a stalk or two he is pretty well smoked for the rest of the trip. Both of us are in good shape, but I'm trying to find some options/exercises to help him prolong his time in the high country.

I lift a lot of heavy weights and do incline treadmill walks with and without a backpack on the regular. He will mix in some rucking, but not too often. I've told him to mix in some lunges, step ups, and add more rucking this year to see if it helps. Any other suggestions?

I also partially attribute his legs getting weak based on his calorie intake. I know he needs to eat more, but he has trouble eating enough. We are working on his meal list to get higher, more palatable calories to get him more fuel.

What else am I missing? I know he loves getting back there and want him to be able to keep going as long as he can. I also know I need to slow down on the hike in and when we move camp. He keeps up with me, but I know it is at a cost.

 

[TheHammer]

Sounds like a nutritional deficiency?Hydration? Daily electrolytes? Is he rucking daily? If he isn’t already. Most of us would benefit from being on some test replacement or booster, a clean creatine for all its benefits, I use mtn ops mixed with my ignite in the morning with noticeable effects, get him on and bring a recovery supplement preferably one with a relaxation/sleep aid. I’m on month 2 of first phorms primal stack, it has changed my daily life.

 

[tdcour]

He doesn't ruck a ton, but does hit the gym and get some cardio in quite often. He is in good enough shape it seems like it has to be diet or nutrients of some sort.

I'll talk to him about creatine for sure. Not sure why I haven't mentioned it to him before. That will definitely help as we try to bump his calorie intake in the woods. We drink about the same amount of water throughout the hunt so I think he is good there.

 

[McKolorado]

So, this sounds like its probably a combination of factors.

If you want to dive into the deep end read Training for the New Alpinism: A manual for the climber as athlete.

There is a TON in that book and it reads more like a text book than I'd prefer but it's content is top shelf when it comes to being fit for the mountains.

A few pointers from it that may apply

1 - If he's training 5 days a week. An over simplification would be that 3 of those 5 days need to be LONG and SLOW endurance activities (hilly hike, run/jog, slow paced box step-ups). Training like this builds strength and endurance in the slow twitch fibers which subsequently allows them to go longer and further. The problem is that the way most people do cardio is that its too intense and two short. When "cardio" is done too intense and not long enough it shifts the bodies response and the slow twitch muscle fibers never build the capacity/strength to do long term endurance activities. The other two days should be strength with a core/chassis focus.

2 - Building this base of Endurance can't be done overnight. Depending on is current base level of fitness the "LONG" and "SLOW" workouts may need to start at 30 minutes and then ad 10% of the volume each week. So if its 30 minutes three times a week that's a total of 90 minutes. The next week would be 99 minutes total volume, which could be broken into 33, 33 and 33, but a better approach would probably be 30, 30 then 39. The next week increase by 10% and try to keep one session the longest and the other two split equally. Yes, this will eventually take a SUBSTANTIAL amount of time on one day but you have to keep in mind the end goal. A FULL week of chasing Mule Deer in the high county of CO!!!

3 - Nutrition/Diet - a little of this is from the book and some from personal experience. One, he needs to be fat adapted (i.e. his body adapts to burn fat for fuel instead of carbs). This can be accomplished by limiting carbs and training endurance days fasted. As he gets older he (everyone) NEEDS to prioritize PROTEIN. This can't be said enough, if he hasn't already cut out anything and everything that's processed and prioritize real food that has one, two and maybe 3 ingredients on the list. Obviously this can be tough but the body was designed to run on "all natural" and I honestly believe it runs best when we are as close to "whole" food as we can get.

 

[McKolorado]

Also it’s been a while since I listened to this but if memory serves it may be a beneficial listen.

‎Backcountry Hunting Podcast: The Lifetime Athlete with John Zombro on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Backcountry Hunting Podcast, Ep The Lifetime Athlete with John Zombro - Jul 28, 2022

podcasts.apple.com

 

[bozeman]

Hunt 2 days, rest one day…..hunt 2 days, rest again. Tried something like this?

 

[fngTony]

Try lighter boots that don’t compromise anything else. Is he using trekking poles? We’re all different but at some point age catches up and you have to assist the body.

 

[ELKhunter60]

I'm 56 and live in Michigan. My son and best hunting buddy is 31 and lives in Montana. He can now smoke me on the trails when we head into the elk backcountry. Honestly - I find myself wanting to keep up with him because I don't like anyone waiting for me and probably because my ego doesn't want me to be the slow poke of the bunch either. BUT - I think the time has come where he is either going to have to go do some hunting on his own, or he is going to have to get comfortable with slowing down a little bit. If I push too hard, it can gas me. If I go at my own pace I can go anywhere all week but it may take longer than a young person.

Consider this for your dad - it may or may not apply to your situation.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

I bet if you force feed him carbs he'll keep quite a bit of his steam. After a couple days I have to do that myself, just not hungry enough to eat naturally so have to add gobs of pasta or rice that I'm not interested in, but it works.

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

So, this sounds like its probably a combination of factors.

If you want to dive into the deep end read Training for the New Alpinism: A manual for the climber as athlete.

There is a TON in that book and it reads more like a text book than I'd prefer but it's content is top shelf when it comes to being fit for the mountains.

A few pointers from it that may apply

1 - If he's training 5 days a week. An over simplification would be that 3 of those 5 days need to be LONG and SLOW endurance activities (hilly hike, run/jog, slow paced box step-ups). Training like this builds strength and endurance in the slow twitch fibers which subsequently allows them to go longer and further. The problem is that the way most people do cardio is that its too intense and two short. When "cardio" is done too intense and not long enough it shifts the bodies response and the slow twitch muscle fibers never build the capacity/strength to do long term endurance activities. The other two days should be strength with a core/chassis focus.

2 - Building this base of Endurance can't be done overnight. Depending on is current base level of fitness the "LONG" and "SLOW" workouts may need to start at 30 minutes and then ad 10% of the volume each week. So if its 30 minutes three times a week that's a total of 90 minutes. The next week would be 99 minutes total volume, which could be broken into 33, 33 and 33, but a better approach would probably be 30, 30 then 39. The next week increase by 10% and try to keep one session the longest and the other two split equally. Yes, this will eventually take a SUBSTANTIAL amount of time on one day but you have to keep in mind the end goal. A FULL week of chasing Mule Deer in the high county of CO!!!

3 - Nutrition/Diet - a little of this is from the book and some from personal experience. One, he needs to be fat adapted (i.e. his body adapts to burn fat for fuel instead of carbs). This can be accomplished by limiting carbs and training endurance days fasted. As he gets older he (everyone) NEEDS to prioritize PROTEIN. This can't be said enough, if he hasn't already cut out anything and everything that's processed and prioritize real food that has one, two and maybe 3 ingredients on the list. Obviously this can be tough but the body was designed to run on "all natural" and I honestly believe it runs best when we are as close to "whole" food as we can get.

This is some great info here. 5 days a week at the gym is great but what is he doing those 5 days? Dumbbell curls and big biceps aren’t going to do much for you in the mountains. I’d make sure those 5 days are focused very specific on the endurance and posterior chain strength training. When in doubt ask yourself what would @mtwarden do? (Check out his daily regimen on the WOD thread.)

 

[tdcour]

Hunt 2 days, rest one day…..hunt 2 days, rest again. Tried something like this?

No sir. Our rest periods are mainly when we are sitting around all day just glassing. We typically hunt above timber line, so it is a lot of glass time compared to other hunts

 

[tdcour]

Try lighter boots that don’t compromise anything else. Is he using trekking poles? We’re all different but at some point age catches up and you have to assist the body.

Right now he is using Lowa Tibets. His feet seem to like them, but they are HEAVY! He also wears a size 15, so most will be heavy anyway. I did get him to start using trekking poles a few years ago. That seemed to help quite a bit. I think we need to look at overall pack weight too. This year we will be splitting shelter and cooking stuff, so that will lighten it up a bit.

 

[tdcour]

I bet if you force feed him carbs he'll keep quite a bit of his steam. After a couple days I have to do that myself, just not hungry enough to eat naturally so have to add gobs of pasta or rice that I'm not interested in, but it works.

I do think his calorie intake is too low. I know he complained about not wanting to eat and nothing tasting good enough to eat except his meal at night. It might be worth seeing if he wants to pack two dehydrated meals a day to up his calorie intake if those are more palatable.

 

[tdcour]

This is some great info here. 5 days a week at the gym is great but what is he doing those 5 days? Dumbbell curls and big biceps aren’t going to do much for you in the mountains. I’d make sure those 5 days are focused very specific on the endurance and posterior chain strength training. When in doubt ask yourself what would @mtwarden do? (Check out his daily regimen on the WOD thread.)

He does do some traditional gym workouts, but he sticks to mostly full body strength training to maintain where he is at. Not really trying to build muscle anymore, just keep what he has. He does do 10-15 minutes of cardio daily. Wouldn't hurt to have him longer cardio workouts especially with a weighted pack.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out!

 

[VAelkhuntr]

Dad and I drew a high country muley tag in CO again this year. We have hunted a handful of times in the area and Dad always seems to lose his legs after a few days. He will be 65 this year and still getting up to 13k elevation, so he is definitely no slouch. He hits the gym 5 days a week, but again, after a few days going on a stalk or two he is pretty well smoked for the rest of the trip. Both of us are in good shape, but I'm trying to find some options/exercises to help him prolong his time in the high country.

I lift a lot of heavy weights and do incline treadmill walks with and without a backpack on the regular. He will mix in some rucking, but not too often. I've told him to mix in some lunges, step ups, and add more rucking this year to see if it helps. Any other suggestions?

I also partially attribute his legs getting weak based on his calorie intake. I know he needs to eat more, but he has trouble eating enough. We are working on his meal list to get higher, more palatable calories to get him more fuel.

What else am I missing? I know he loves getting back there and want him to be able to keep going as long as he can. I also know I need to slow down on the hike in and when we move camp. He keeps up with me, but I know it is at a cost.

Maximum Aerobic Function training. True game changer and pretty much requires no recovery. All you need is something to monitor heart rate and do whatever type of cardio he enjoys. Aerobic capacity will go through the roof and will make your body super efficient and keep you out of those heart rate ranges that are hard to recover from.

 

[tdcour]

I'll have to check this out. He definitely gets winded at altitude, but his legs are the first thing to quit on him. Will this help with legs or more so just the lungs and heart?

 

[McKolorado]

The MAF training is very in-line with the LONG SLOW training the Uphill Athlete book prescribes. Yes, it will build muscle endurance and help him keep his legs. He should also shift his strength training days to focus on legs; squats (any variant but front squat/goblet squats will help engage the core) and split/single leg squats and I am also a fan of posterior chain work (i.e. deadlifts, hinge movements). There will be added benefit if he can do the MAF/low heart rate training in a form that mimics hunts. i.e. hiking (especially uphill and downhill) and box step ups. He might benefit greatly from finding a pre-programmed plan. I've put a few sites below.

IMPORTANT - the MAF training/low and slow training is "easy" but it is time consuming and takes a LONG time to build up. This isn't something you can start 3-4 weeks before season and hope to benefit significantly from. The early he shifts his training the better.

Also, this should go without saying, but if he's not familiar with any lifts make sure someone can coach him (especially deadlifts/hinge work) and keep weights well within comfortable until there's a significant confidence in the ability to complete the movement safely. No point in getting hurt trying to train for a hunt, that sucks.

https://uphillathlete.com/training-plans/ - I haven't used any of their specific plans but applied their principles from their book to my training and had very good success

https://mtntactical.com/ - I am currently working through their Backcountry Hunt Plan so the jury is still out but I'm stronger and in better shape this time of year than I have ever been before so I am optimistic. Also Rob and his staff are super awesome about getting back to you if you email them questions.

https://humanpredatorpackmule.com/ - I haven't used his stuff but based on the podcasts I've listened to he knows his stuff and programs in line with the above stuff and is probably worth checking out.

https://mtntough.com/ - I haven't used their stuff but they are a rokslide sponsor and plenty of guys on here love their programming and have given positive reviews.

 

[*zap*]

I do 3 separate lower body days on a every 3rd or 4th day rotation depending on if I take a day off. 1-low bar back squats, vertical leg press and standing calf raise. 2-seated leg extensions, seated leg curls and seated leg press. 3-back bar good morning variations, rdl's (these 2 focus on strict hip hinge) and deadlifts.
I also do good morning variations with a stick across my back on lower body day 2 in between sets.
Plus one leg rdl and knee strengthen exercises on a different day.
67 in 30 days......if I make it.

lower body day.
joint health, hang, knee, stretch/yoga day
upper body day.
maybe off maybe not day.

right now swimming as I feel able on any of those days.

daily walk with the doggie. no rucking right now.

good luck

 

[VAelkhuntr]

I'll have to check this out. He definitely gets winded at altitude, but his legs are the first thing to quit on him. Will this help with legs or more so just the lungs and heart?

At your dad's age the ability to recover from training is gonna be the most important. If he goes for a long pack hike and doesn't feel like working out for two or three days there isn't much point in doing it. MAF does not have to be extremely long either. The stimulus is the same whether you do 30 minutes or an hour. Im guessing he isn't going to be interested in doing any intense programming cycles. Honestly some MAF about 2 days a week 30-45 minutes between now and hunting season will yield a great result. If he wants to ruck for exercise you can do MAF training with that as well. Simple as having something to monitor hr with. It is also a great way to learn how hard your body is actually working at a specific effort. If you aren't living at high elevation its a great way to see how much the altitude is affecting you and if you need to be taking it easy so as not risk altitude sickness. Cheers

 

[VAelkhuntr]

At your dad's age the ability to recover from training is gonna be the most important. If he goes for a long pack hike and doesn't feel like working out for two or three days there isn't much point in doing it. MAF does not have to be extremely long either. The stimulus is the same whether you do 30 minutes or an hour. Im guessing he isn't going to be interested in doing any intense programming cycles. Honestly some MAF about 2 days a week 30-45 minutes between now and hunting season will yield a great result. If he wants to ruck for exercise you can do MAF training with that as well. Simple as having something to monitor hr with. It is also a great way to learn how hard your body is actually working at a specific effort. If you aren't living at high elevation its a great way to see how much the altitude is affecting you and if you need to be taking it easy so as not risk altitude sickness. Cheers

The other pro for MAF is the aerobic capacity you build with it will allow you to train with more intensity/volume on your other training days. MAF is a simple progressive overload that requires little recovery. It's really the main benefit of it. If your dad is a 20 minute mile hiker at his MAF hr today he will be a 15 minute mile hiker at his MAF hr by November. I wish I would've known of this training style in my twenties because I went through several of the programs listed my mckolorado from the MTI company and they created a lot of imbalance and have poor coaching in technique and doesn't really have a great grasp on how to build programs. Don't get me wrong, I was in excellent shape but the long term cost to my joints was pretty high. My physical therapist was shocked at the programming from MTI and said he could see why my back and hips are 20 years older than my age group. I follow the stamina and apex programming from SOFLETE which has been great for me in conjunction with physical therapy. I drank the Kool Aid from MTI for about 10 years. Im no novice in the training realm and have been a Wildland Firefighter for almost 20 years. Anyways I'll get off my soapbox