Montana Wolf Poaching - and so it begins...

[BackcountryMT]

Man you must be one of the luckiest guys in the valley. Hunted in Sula, Darby area a ton towards wisdom and have seen wolves twice, cut tracks every time I've went and heard them howling multiple times.

One of my Cousins is born, raised and lives in Lolo and has been hunting up Lolo creek on the south side since he could start hunting in 92 and he is sickened by how much the elk population has dropped and how many wolves are in the area. Now I no that the decline of elk in the root isn't all because of wolves but he is not a road hunter by any means. He kills an elk every year up there and covers the country and for the last 6 years he has seen wolves every season. Just look at the HD's in the valley compared to years past and there is a lot less tags available.

I agree they are here and have impacted the herds. The area north of highway 12 is hammered right now. I live in Lolo as well.

I just don't believe wolves are behind every tree as people would hope to believe.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

Good thread, definatly makes you think hard about this.

I've spent what I would describe as a fair amount of time in yellowstone, more than just a vacation. The elk in the park aren't what I would use as the basis for describing the true impact of wolves. You have to consider how incredibly tolerant they are of people, and all the other craziness that goes with living in a nationla park. Wild elk bust the second they know someone is around. Park elk really don't; they even try to intimidate people vs running away. Is it that far of a stretch to believe the same thing happened when wolves showed back up? The elk just didn't behave normally? I don't doubt the data, but you have to consider Yellowstone is a special situation in itself, and elk are getting their butts handed to them by a predator.

That said, I also saw first hand what reintroduction did to elk herds adjacent to the park boundaries, where there were plenty of very wild elk. There aren't as many elk there now. And I also found an elk kill while bear hunting a few weeks ago, with wolf tracks all over the place. That really put their impact in my face.

I don't think this shouldn't be an us vs. them argument with wolves being the line in the sand for us, which is what i feel like i read the most on this topic. And I don't think killing them all is best for the future. Like it or not, there are those that support the reintroduction of wolves. I view a liberal hunting season as the only population tool we've got in place, regardless of how you classify the animal. It's amazing we even have that. There aren't enough of them to open up a free for all. Someday there might be, and I hope the elk are smart enough to be there when the day comes.

 

[In God We Trust]

I find it troubling that the MFWP is allowing the "Wolves of the Rockies" group to donate another 2,000 dollars towards the reward. This is the same group that is against the proposals Montana and Wyoming have put forward in the past regarding hunting seasons and tag quotas for wolves. I guess that shows you the MFWP will get in bed with anti hunting organizations when it benefits them. Here is a thought, bring wolf numbers back to what was originally agreed upon and you will see less instances like this. Hunters and sportsman were lied to and now there are way more wolves in the Rocky Mountain region then we were told there would be. The Feds and wolf lovers broke their end of the agreement so now some people on the other side are doing the same. Right or wrong the pro wolf side broke/ bent the rules first.

 

[tipsntails7]

I respectfully disagree. Elk numbers in Yellowstone are a perfect example. Before the reintroduction they were thriving. Now you will be lucky to see half the elk you would have 20 years ago. I also know there are many sportsman out there who follow every rule in the book with game animals but when it comes to wolves (cougars in my state) they choose to bend those rules a little. I do not blame them one bit. There is a reason we got rid of these animals in the early 1900s.

While I personally do not agree with bending rules. That's a slippery slop you start on, and that just shines a worse light on the hunting community as a whole when people start "deciding" which rule to follow. We as hunters have a hard enough time retaining our rights to hunt predators without problems such as this. Antis did not get trapping and running trap lines banned in many areas, the neglect and disrespect of that craft by the people who did it did. While many may feel it's good that another wolf is dead the onus is on us as hunters do do it the "right" way. We don't have the votes or the support from people to allow non hunters to be swayed by hunters that choose to break the rules an act like it's ok.

Also use the LOLO unit as your smoking gun against wolves, the Yellowstone elk are a great example of gross mismanagement of elk by a fish and game department, wolves were not the sole reason that that heard plummeted, probably not even top 3

 

[BackcountryMT]

Also use the LOLO unit as your smoking gun against wolves, the Yellowstone elk are a great example of gross mismanagement of elk by a fish and game department, wolves were not the sole reason that that heard plummeted, probably not even top 3

Agreed. Yeah, the wolves have had an impact, but gross over harvest quotas set by FWP certainly shared a large part in the decline of elk numbers. Mule deer numbers as well.

FWP isn't a very favored organization around here.

 

[Jarrod Renaud]

Man you must be one of the luckiest guys in the valley. Hunted in Sula, Darby area a ton towards wisdom and have seen wolves twice, cut tracks every time I've went and heard them howling multiple times.

One of my Cousins is born, raised and lives in Lolo and has been hunting up Lolo creek on the south side since he could start hunting in 92 and he is sickened by how much the elk population has dropped and how many wolves are in the area. Now I no that the decline of elk in the root isn't all because of wolves but he is not a road hunter by any means. He kills an elk every year up there and covers the country and for the last 6 years he has seen wolves every season. Just look at the HD's in the valley compared to years past and there is a lot less tags available.

Brewer, I just got back from a visit to my brothers place in Stevensville. We were about 7 miles up Bass Creek on our way to scan some hills for bears when we jumped a lone beta/scout... And just this past winter my brother cut tracks up there of a small pack. Then on the other side of the highway we've run into and called in multiple packs along with having a huge black wolf jump across our trail within 20 yards... That was just a handful of miles south of Burnt Fork. The further you hike the more you find. They're everywhere, it's been crazy.

Hiking in 12-15 miles is a normal thing now to follow and stay on the elk. The herds that my brother has been hunting for years that are more in the "foothills" ... 3-6 miles off the roads are now being so very quiet and are surrounded by wolf sign.

They're starting to pop up more frequently in Colorado now too :/ management needs to tighten up. Overall they're smart critters, not easy to hunt so harvest numbers are low.

 

[Beastmode]

I do agree a bad public image on hunting doesn't help things at all. I have seen what complete mismanagement of predators has done to the deer herd in California. For a good couple seasons I saw more coyotes and bear in a season than deer. Not just bucks deer. It is very frustrating. The lion situation is a whole different topic. These are highly intelligent animals where even if they opened up hunting in this state without being able to trap them or run dogs very few would be killed. It doesn't mean they don't have a healthy population it just means they are incredibly smart, just like wolves.

How many more wolves get killed each year from guys using the SSS method? It's hard to say but I'm sure it's a lot.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I respectfully disagree. Elk numbers in Yellowstone are a perfect example. Before the reintroduction they were thriving. Now you will be lucky to see half the elk you would have 20 years ago. I also know there are many sportsman out there who follow every rule in the book with game animals but when it comes to wolves (cougars in my state) they choose to bend those rules a little. I do not blame them one bit. There is a reason we got rid of these animals in the early 1900s.

Disagree all you want, but if you are disagreeing with me about the impacts of politics and agricultural agendas relative to wolves, well you are quite simply wrong.

The Northern Yellowstone herd is a wonderful centerpiece for the Big Game Forever crowd, but wolves had nothing to do with all of the cow elk that have been shot in order to reach population objectives that were determined based upon social tolerance.

 

[Beastmode]

If the wolves aren't eating elk what are they eating?

I was disagreeing that people who shoot wolves out of season are not always shooting other animals out of season.

 

[kpk]

Shrek let's not forget the 3000+ that are in Mn. It would be nice if they were thinned out so there could be a moose season again.

The crappy thing is about this story is the wolf lovers/anti hunters will try and use this against all ethical hunting for wolves. The boneheads should have did a better job of covering there tracks.

I think there should be an open season on them as well. With that said the only way I will shoot one is if I have a tag in my pocket.

The same thing that happened here in MN is happening out west. Wolves thrived here and the DNR and anti's tried blaming disease, climate, habitat, and everything else they could think up for the decline in moose and deer numbers. They did this for years. They're finally running out of excuses that haven't held up. They're now finally starting to admit the decline in moose/deer is due to predation---unfortunately it's too little way too late. And now the feds ended our wolf season and we can't hunt them anymore---and moose are awfully close to being non existent.

In my eyes wolves are just like coyotes. Once they're established they're pretty much there to stay. Coyotes are considered non-game here and we can shoot as many as possible with little regulation. We can even use 2 way radios. People shoot coyotes year round by the hundreds and it doesn't put a dent in them. There are just as many the next year as there was the previous. I don't believe wolves/coyotes should be completely eradicated but controlling the population is extrememly critical if you want any other game species around.

 

[5MilesBack]

Why are you so afraid of them?

I had to read the thread again, but never found anyone saying they were afraid of wolves.?????

Wolves should be in the same category as coyotes.......open season whenever and for whatever reason. I don't think anyone is afraid of coyotes either.

 

[BroodBuster]

The way some here lose their minds every time the word wolf is mentioned I assumed they were afraid of them for some reason.

I do agree that if the population is healthy they should be managed similar to coyotes.

 

[roknHS]

I give thanks each time I hear about a wolf being dispatched..........shot, run over, snared, trapped, drowned, died of unknown causes. It all works. For those on here that like them and think they should have game animal status, I'd like to trap all the ones within 100 miles of me and turn them loose in your favorite hunting spot or your back yard. Everyone has the right to an opinion.............you just heard mine.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I give thanks each time I hear about a wolf being dispatched..........shot, run over, snared, trapped, drowned, died of unknown causes. It all works. For those on here that like them and think they should have game animal status, I'd like to trap all the ones within 100 miles of me and turn them loose in your favorite hunting spot or your back yard. Everyone has the right to an opinion.............you just heard mine.

There are plenty of wolves in my favorite hunting spot.

I could care less how they are classified. It will probably not make a significant difference one way or the other in terms of overall populations. I didn't want them here in the first place, but they are and the reality is, they aren't going to "destroy" hunting.

I'm sure plenty of farmers and ranchers feel the same way about deer and elk as you do about wolves. Would it be okay for them to shoot out of season all the time?

 

[airlocksniffer]

Wolves destroy the elk and deer populations where they take up residence? Tell that to the elk in the Bob Marshall. Elk in Yellowstone, the Bitterroot, etc are still adapting to having another apex predator and will find a balance. Besides, the majority of the elk decline in the Bitterroot is due to mountain lions, not wolves. Wolves should be managed like any other natural resource

 

[brewer427]

The crappy thing is about this story is the wolf lovers/anti hunters will try and use this against all ethical hunting for wolves. The boneheads should have did a better job of covering there tracks.

This is my fear right here. I could see them saying that poaching has impacted the overall population and need to be relisted.

 

[brewer427]

I agree they are here and have impacted the herds. The area north of highway 12 is hammered right now. I live in Lolo as well.

I just don't believe wolves are behind every tree as people would hope to believe.

I'll have to agree with that. I think guy's that say poison or kill them all, hurt hunters more then help. As much as I would like to see them gone all together, I know there here for good, but I do think they are going to keep expanding there area and increase in population to a point where they will become a unmanageable problem that will not be able to be fixed.

 

[Wileycoyote]

I think they met their objective, the biggest elk herd to populate other parts of the nation now needs to be re-populated itself. I went through the park three weeks ago at 8 in the morning and saw probably 5000 buffalo, and three elk. Two cows together and 1 bull about three miles off the road. I guess they can be happy now, from 22,000 elk now to less than 3,000, with virtually none to be seen. But you may see a overgrown husky running through every now and again. Obviously I'm missing something and all these wolves are running around eating berries. What a joke. I have my tag for when I cross paths with one of these varmints.

 

[mtluckydan]

The problem with the wolf introduction is that the entire project has been based on multiple lies. Some or all of the money used to do the reintroduction was from the Pittman-Robertson Fund that we all have paid into: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=165186.0

The next lie had to do with how many wolves that we would have to have to de-list and be allowed to manage ( hunt & trap) them. They would still not be de-listed if Congress didn't bypass our good judge from Missoula, MT.

The wolves were knowingly introduced into areas carrying parasites that possibly kill big game animals like moose: http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010...-have-thousands-of-hydatid-disease-tapeworms/

I have tried to research dollar amounts that Montana, Idaho and Wyoming have received to re-introduce wolves and then "manage" them and have had no success. I think if you knew how much money they received it would be a staggering amount, all the while collecting my money and yours for licenses for a declining big game hunting opportunity. If someone else knows these amounts please post them and the source.

Not only have the wolves killed the big game animals we all love, they have killed countless cattle, horses, sheep, dogs, cats and other pets and livestock. The so-called reimbursement monies provided by special interest groups and government funding would be yet another lie from this fiasco. It isn't bad enough that your animal has been killed and eaten, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that wolves did this. Most people give up because the criteria for receiving the payout is ridiculously unreasonable.

It is easy for some people that are good hunters or that live in areas of some of these states (like eastern Montana) to say the wolves haven't really had a big impact because they still get their elk every year. You would be wrong. They have had a big impact. I have no problem getting animals. I am not lazy. That doesn't somehow make the population comparable to pre-wolf numbers. The gentleman that lives in the Bitteroot Valley that says the wolves haven't impacted the elk down there. Why don't you look at the season and tag allotments for HD 250. Only 25 special draw tags for the entire season and it is brow tine bull only. You can't take a cow elk even with a bow. Ask the locals what the hunting was like prior to wolves. If you think it is the mountain lions that did this you would be incorrect.

There will be no easy answer to this problem. It is unfortunate how it has divided the hunting community. I will not personally purchase a tag for wolves ever because I will not support a program based on lies. People will believe what they believe, but numbers don't lie. As far as I can tell, the Montana FWP site only goes back to 2004 with the published data on harvest. It would be interesting to see the pre-wolf data as a comparison. Even though we may be in disagreement on the appropriateness of killing wolves out of season - the wolves are killing 365 days a year and I haven't found one that starved to death yet. The evidence was probably eaten by the other wolves.

 

[5MilesBack]

I'm sure plenty of farmers and ranchers feel the same way about deer and elk as you do about wolves. Would it be okay for them to shoot out of season all the time?

Actually that would be no different than what the wolves are doing right now, they take deer and elk out of season as well as in season. The environmentalists and wolf huggers should have no problem with that at all. In their eyes the herds will just adapt to the ranchers taking out several every year, just like they expect the decimated herds to do with the wolves. The only difference is.......the ranchers probably wouldn't be taking out calves, and they'd actually be eating their kills.