Montana Unit 270 Draw Question

[travisurkul]

My buddy and I are thinking of applying for unit 270 for elk which is a limited entry unit that is 100% to draw as a first choice. We have 0 preference points so we are still uncertain of whether we will draw the general combo license. I have a couple questions regarding this.

1. If I elect to not purchase a bonus point and not participate in the bonus point system in order to save my bonus points, is this still a guaranteed draw?

2. If I elect to not purchase a bonus point and not participate in the bonus point system, and then do not draw a general combo license, am I able to then purchase a bonus point in the points only period?

If my understanding is correct, it is a guaranteed draw even if I elect to not purchase a point, but that would disqualify me from buying a bonus point regardless if I draw a general combo license or not. This give me 2 options:

1. I can elect to purchase a bonus point, in which case if I draw I lose all my points, but if I don’t, I retain my points and gain one.

2. I can elect to not purchase a bonus point, in which case if I draw I retain my points and am unable to purchase one later or I don’t draw and I am still unable to purchase one later.

Anyone have any insight into this? My hangup is that if you don't draw a general combo license, you aren't even considered for the limited entry draw, so why would electing to not buy a point for this disqualify me from buying one later if I don't draw a general combo license?

 

[Riplip]

My buddy and I are thinking of applying for unit 270 for elk which is a limited entry unit that is 100% to draw as a first choice. We have 0 preference points so we are still uncertain of whether we will draw the general combo license. I have a couple questions regarding this.

1. If I elect to not purchase a bonus point and not participate in the bonus point system in order to save my bonus points, is this still a guaranteed draw?

2. If I elect to not purchase a bonus point and not participate in the bonus point system, and then do not draw a general combo license, am I able to then purchase a bonus point in the points only period?

If my understanding is correct, it is a guaranteed draw even if I elect to not purchase a point, but that would disqualify me from buying a bonus point regardless if I draw a general combo license or not. This give me 2 options:

1. I can elect to purchase a bonus point, in which case if I draw I lose all my points, but if I don’t, I retain my points and gain one.

2. I can elect to not purchase a bonus point, in which case if I draw I retain my points and am unable to purchase one later or I don’t draw and I am still unable to purchase one later.

Anyone have any insight into this? My hangup is that if you don't draw a general combo license, you aren't even considered for the limited entry draw, so why would electing to not buy a point for this disqualify me from buying one later if I don't draw a general combo license?

I will see if I can help you here. I assume you are aware of the difference between Preference Points and Bonus Points?

1. If you already have a bonus point(s) you might as well buy another at time of application because if you do draw the limited entry permit you will automatically lose all of your points. FYI - there is really no such thing as a guaranteed draw for a permit, the more bonus points you have the better your odds for the LE tag. (I have not looked into the particular unit you referenced).

2. No, if you apply for a general combo you will need to elect to purchase both PP and BP at that time as you will not be able to later in the year, regardless of your application choices.

3. Yes, if you elect to purchase a bonus point and draw the limited entry unit you will lose your bonus point(s). If you don't draw you will gain another bonus point.

4. No, if you draw you will lose any points you have. See above (1), if you apply and dont elect to purchase a bonus point at that time you cannot purchase one later in the year.

I am not exactly sure what your are asking at the end.

 

[travisurkul]

I will see if I can help you here. I assume you are aware of the difference between Preference Points and Bonus Points?

1. If you already have a bonus point(s) you might as well buy another at time of application because if you do draw the limited entry permit you will automatically lose all of your points. FYI - there is really no such thing as a guaranteed draw for a permit, the more bonus points you have the better your odds for the LE tag. (I have not looked into the particular unit you referenced).

2. No, if you apply for a general combo you will need to elect to purchase both PP and BP at that time as you will not be able to later in the year, regardless of your application choices.

3. Yes, if you elect to purchase a bonus point and draw the limited entry unit you will lose your bonus point(s). If you don't draw you will gain another bonus point.

4. No, if you draw you will lose any points you have. See above (1), if you apply and dont elect to purchase a bonus point at that time you cannot purchase one later in the year.

I am not exactly sure what your are asking at the end.

I am well aware of the difference between preference points and bonus points.

Unit 270 specifically has an unlimited quota for elk, so it is a guaranteed draw if you list it as your first choice. It is listed as UNL in the regulations and mentioned in this article here.
https://www.mthookandbullet.com/202...rom-single-district-rules-for-permit-holders/

From what is stated in the regulations, it sounds like you can elect to not purchase a point and then you do not use your existing points for the drawing. See the red outlined and highlighted portions.
Green highlighted portion is information about when you are allowed to purchase a bonus point.

 

[Riplip]

So if you know all of this why are you on here asking questions? Good luck.

 

[Riplip]

oh and your welcome for taking the time to try to help you.

 

[travisurkul]

oh and your welcome for taking the time to try to help you.

And I appreciate it. I’m not trying to be rude. I’m just trying to put out enough information so people understand what I’m asking since this is a very specific instance.

I am still not 100% sure if it is a guaranteed draw if I elect to opt out of the bonus point program, or if I must opt in and burn them.

Also, if I elect to opt out and then don’t even draw the general combo license, am I still locked out of buying a bonus point later in the year?

I have my assumptions, but am trying to clarify. I contacted Montana FWP and am waiting on a response as well.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

I think you still need to draw a general combo before you can draw the unlimited 270

 

[Tdonat]

I think you still need to draw a general combo before you can draw the unlimited 270

As far as I’m aware he is correct on this.

 

[travisurkul]

As far as I’m aware he is correct on this.

I think you still need to draw a general combo before you can draw the unlimited 270

I understand this. I am mainly asking if I apply for 270, opt of buying a point to try and preserve my existing points, and then do not draw the general combo if I can purchase a bonus point later.

Technically, if I don't draw a general combo license, I haven't even applied for the permit, so it shouldn't prevent me from buying a point later then right?

 

[travisurkul]

Some additional information.

When I select yes for Purchase Bonus Point, it pops up with a message saying I am guaranteed to draw this unit. If I select no, this message does not appear. Does this mean I am not guaranteed to draw if I select no?

 

[Scottf270]

I think if you do not buy a bonus points at the time of application then you cannot buy a bonus point later for the same species.

 

[travisurkul]

I think if you do not buy a bonus points at the time of application then you cannot buy a bonus point later for the same species.

Yeah, I'm guessing this is going to be the way it works, but the regulations do state the following.

You may purchase one bonus point per license type per year, either at the time of application or between July 1 and Sept. 30 of the current year if you did not apply for that license type.

Nonresidents must hold an Elk or Big Game Elk Combination License before applying for an elk permit.

This sounds like if I don't draw a combo license then I haven't actually "applied" and would be able to purchase a bonus point during the summer.

I'm guessing the system is not going to recognize this and just lock me out of buying one later though.

 

[sneaky]

Why don't you call FWP and ask them directly? 1000% more effective than asking random people on a forum.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[MTN BUM]

Think of it this way. You are entering two draws simultaneously. One of them is contingent on the other, and one is not contingent on the other. The two draws:

1. General combo tag. Deals with preference points. This is the weird one where you can have better odds with 0 points than with 1 point. Drawing this tag is not dependent on anything. If you draw it, you own it or pay a penalty (based on timing) to return it.

2. Limited entry 270 tag. Deals with bonus points. Can elect in/out of the bonus point system. If you elect in, your points are used in the drawing process. In the case of 270, would not affect your odds as the tag is unlimited so you will draw either way. If you elect into the bonus point system and draw, points are gone. If you elect out of the system, you are out for the year. Meaning you cannot opt out and then buy a point later as this application does DQ you from purchasing later in the year as (poorly) described in the regs. This is the app that depends on the other draw- if you dont draw a general combo tag, it would not matter if you opted in or out of the bonus point system, you would never make it to this limited entry draw and so WOULD be able to purchase a point later in the year.

So really only three outcomes
-Dont draw a general combo and can buy a point later but you get no general or limited tag
-Draw general, opt into bonus points, you will draw general and LE tag and lose points and cannot buy later
-Draw general, opt out of bonus points, you will draw both tags again, will NOT lose your current points, but also can NOT buy a point later in the year.

I see what you are getting at, but no. You cannot both draw a LE tag, keep old points, and gain a bonus point in the same year.

Thank god MT has an easy to understand system.

 

[Bradverbs]

Why don't you call FWP and ask them directly? 1000% more effective than asking random people on a forum.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

I second this guy 100%

 

[travisurkul]

Why don't you call FWP and ask them directly? 1000% more effective than asking random people on a forum.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

I second this guy 100%

You would think so, but I'm guessing you've never worked with Montana FWP.

Here is the reply I got from them... with some obviously false information that directly contradicts the regulations. I put the information that is false in red.

If I elect to not purchase a bonus point and not participate in the bonus point system in order to save my bonus points, is this still a guaranteed draw?

For Permit 270-45, applicants with a single bonus point were 100% successful.

All existing elk bonus points will be used in the drawing regardless of any additional purchases.


If I elect to not purchase a bonus point and not participate in the bonus point system, and then do not draw a general combo license, am I able to then purchase a bonus point in the points only period?

Points are available for purchase only if you elected not to purchase them at the time of application. Bonus points for special permits can be purchased July 1-Sep 30. Preference points can be purchased July 1-December 31st.

If my understanding is correct, it is a guaranteed draw even if I elect to not purchase a point, but that would disqualify me from buying a bonus point later regardless if I draw a general combo license or not. This give me 2 options:

1. I can elect to purchase a bonus point, in which case if I draw I lose all my points, but if I don’t, I retain my points and gain one.

You do not gain bonus points after an unsuccessful application. Bonus points are not lost if you do not apply for the special permit. They are maintained until you have a successful application. If you select not to purchase a bonus point during the application process, you can purchase one from July 1- Sep 30.

Preference points do expire and require you to apply for the nonresident combination license each year. You can purchase a preference point with this application or from July 1-December 31st.

1. I can elect to not purchase a bonus point, in which case if I draw I retain my points and am unable to purchase one later or I don’t draw and I am still unable to purchase one later.

If you do not purchase a bonus point at the time of application, you can purchase one in the summer months.

I've posted the relevent parts of regulations already, but here are the specific pieces that contradict their response.

If a person does not elect to purchase a bonus point, their existing bonus points will not be used or applied to the current years drawing

If you submit an application for an elk permit on April 1, you may also purchase a bonus point at that time. If you do not choose to purchase a bonus point at that time, you may not purchase one from July - September.

 

[travisurkul]

This is the app that depends on the other draw- if you dont draw a general combo tag, it would not matter if you opted in or out of the bonus point system, you would never make it to this limited entry draw and so WOULD be able to purchase a point later in the year.

So really only three outcomes
-Dont draw a general combo and can buy a point later but you get no general or limited tag
-Draw general, opt into bonus points, you will draw general and LE tag and lose points and cannot buy later
-Draw general, opt out of bonus points, you will draw both tags again, will NOT lose your current points, but also can NOT buy a point later in the year.

Thank you! This is what I was looking for.

I did understand that I cannot draw a LE tag, keep old points, and gain a bonus point in the same year. I was just concerned with opting out, not drawing anything, and then still being disqualified from purchasing a point later. They make it confusing as to when you've actually "applied".

Technically, I don't think you can opt in to the bonus point system without purchasing a bonus point. So if you buy one and opt in when you fill out your application, I think that does disqualify you from purchasing one later even if you don't draw the combo. Unless I'm misunderstanding something and that point purchase doesn't go through.

 

[Cinnabar Slim]

You would think so, but I'm guessing you've never worked with Montana FWP.

Here is the reply I got from them... with some obviously false information that directly contradicts the regulations. I put the information that is false in red.


I've posted the relevent parts of regulations already, but here are the specific pieces that contradict their response.

Dealt with emailing FWP many times, and yes they do seem to contradict themselves at times. I have had better luck calling, because sometimes you can explain the situation better.

It's still hit or miss though, sometimes you get someone that doesn't know what they are talking about and sometimes you will. At least over the phone you can control where their train of thought goes.

For what it's worth, I believe that MTN BUM is correct, there are several different tags that work that way with the bonus points.

 

[travisurkul]

Dealt with emailing FWP many times, and yes they do seem to contradict themselves at times. I have had better luck calling, because sometimes you can explain the situation better.

It's still hit or miss though, sometimes you get someone that doesn't know what they are talking about and sometimes you will. At least over the phone you can control where their train of thought goes.

For what it's worth, I believe that MTN BUM is correct, there are several different tags that work that way with the bonus points.

I think MTN BUM is correct as well. I am going to opt out. Then I save my existing points no matter what and can still gain one if I don't draw the combo.

 

[Indian Summer]

406-444-2950 gets you directly to the Mt licensing department.