Montana season change proposal

[rogerthat]

If you read my earlier post, I obviously 100% agree on huge increases in WT doe tags. Managing the Mtn lion quota is the easiest thing that they could implement. They will kill the exact number of the quota annually, period.

If we are forced to pick a region, I would obviously pick my neck of the woods. But I agree with you… we can argue about everything from science, to guesstimate “data”, to “the way it’s always been”, to whatever ever else we want to argue about. BUT, this is fact. Making such a large scale change, this quickly, would be a very, very hard thing to pass in MT. Not saying I agree or disagree. But there are 2 things that Montanans hate… the way things are, and change.

I can’t disagree with this.

 

[mtwarden]

If you read my earlier post, I obviously 100% agree on huge increases in WT doe tags. Managing the Mtn lion quota is the easiest thing that they could implement.

If we are forced to pick a region, I would obviously pick my neck of the woods. But I agree with you… we can argue about everything from science, to guesstimate “data”, to “the way it’s always been”, to whatever ever else we want to argue about. BUT, this is fact. Making such a large scale change, this quickly, would be a very, very hard thing to pass in MT. Not saying I agree or disagree. But there are 2 things that Montanans hate… the way things are, and change.

If you read my earlier post, I obviously 100% agree on huge increases in WT doe tags. Managing the Mtn lion quota is the easiest thing that they could implement. They will kill the exact number of the quota annually, period.

Decades ago in Region 7 we we’re getting reports here and there about lions and eventually had a rancher call in that had a horse raked pretty good by one.

The wildlife manager said let’s create a season and the quota was one. The next year we had our first lion harvest of one. For the following year, he proposed two. That next year we harvested two. He bumped it to three and of course, we killed three. Don’t know what the quota is now, but there are always more lions than one thinks.

 

[InkedElkSlayer]

Decades ago in Region 7 we we’re getting reports here and there about lions and eventually had a rancher call in that had a horse raked pretty good by one.

The wildlife manager said let’s create a season and the quota was one. The next year we had our first lion harvest of one. For the following year, he proposed two. That next year we harvested two. He bumped it to three and of course, we killed three. Don’t know what the quota is now, but there are always more lions than one thinks.

100%. And you know where I’m stomping around in the woods and live, lions have a much more pronounced affect here simply due to numbers and terrain. Wolves are what everyone bitches about, but we have a guy that has all but single-handedly moved the needle on our wolf population locally. Mtn Lions… there are a ton. And guess where they live? They overlap our best mule deer country.
Then… these f-cking WT. They’re ungulate knapweed that outcompete the mulies. Around here, it sure isn’t the elk outcompeting them.

 

[ddowning]

Moving from the “hunt during rut discussion; declare your region for mule deer.

The more I think about this proposal, the more I don’t like it. I like to roam during hunting season and I don’t see this as a critical component of bringing back mule deer numbers.

It’s been mentioned several times, but liberalize the whitetail hunting, not by a little, but by a lot.

I'm having fun following this conversation. I live in Iowa, and I farm wt. I know there are a lot of habitat and weather pattern differences between ia and Mt, but wt are pretty adaptable. If you want wt to stop competing with MD, you basically need to kill all of them.

When land was more affordable here, my Dr. owned an 865 contiguous acre farm for pheasant hunting. One of my friends and I were tasked with managing the deer. The place was so overpopulated that bucks would not live there. It was not uncommon to see groups of 100-200 deer in the winter (deer don't really yard or congregate in winter here because the food is evenly distributed). We had to enlist the help of every person we knew that would come shoot does. As a group we killed between 75 and 80 does the first season. After that we had to kill 30-40 per season to maintain.

You have to kill a lot of wt to make a dent. The farm was sold as a premier wt farm several years ago because we were never able to create a good pheasant population there. It has changed hands several times due to the need to harvest a ton of does to keep them from crowding out the bucks.

It is a doe factory that no wealthy antler hunter will hang on to. When the does were being managed, we saw multiple Boone and Crockett deer every season (we never ran trail cams, who know what was there we didn't know about.) We also saw wild deer on the hoof in the 190+ typical range at least a couple times per season and a 200+ typical one season....now, no bucks.

Wt does will even overpopulate and outcompete wt bucks for food.

 

[Pony Soldier]

A problem I see on kitties is that the number of hunters with dogs is limited in a given area. After they kill a few they lose interest and really are just in it for the chase. On top of that the ones they choose to kill is usually limited to the biggest males.

For a program of controlling predators for the recovery of mule deer I think you would have to have some idea of the number of kitties that need to be removed. Then you need to have some incentive (bounty) for removing them.

Around my house I have years when you might cut tracks of 3-4 cats per day. When I asked dog people about chasing cats in the area and was told they had no interest because of risk to their dogs from wolves.

Simply increasing the kitty quota isn't a guaranty to solving the problem.

 

[mtwarden]

Dyed in the wool lion hunters are no different than dyed in the wool mule deer hunters, they want to preserve what they have

Years ago South Dakota biologists suspected that there were more lions on the ground than their traditional models were estimating. They went into a defined area and tried to kill every lion. The number of lions they killed were threefold what their previous estimates would have been. They (and I think all Western states?) have since changed the way the estimate lion populations.

 

[brockel]

 

[Pony Soldier]

when I was taking a wildlife management class in the 70s, the prof said the only way control populations was to issue tags specifically for every target. Nobody has proposed a target area for trophy mulies. Similar to the Elkhorns, issue a limited draw for MD does in a district and a limited buck tag draw in that area and manage for older trophy bucks.

It would provide for the trophy chasers and might give better control to study herd dynamics. The one size fits all re-adjustment of seasons doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

[Firestone]

100%. And you know where I’m stomping around in the woods and live, lions have a much more pronounced affect here simply due to numbers and terrain. Wolves are what everyone bitches about, but we have a guy that has all but single-handedly moved the needle on our wolf population locally. Mtn Lions… there are a ton. And guess where they live? They overlap our best mule deer country.
Then… these f-cking WT. They’re ungulate knapweed that outcompete the mulies. Around here, it sure isn’t the elk outcompeting them.

LOUDER for the people in the back!!!

 

[Jason Snyder]

If this proposal passes, and 10 years down the road the elimination of rut hunting didn’t improve the quality of mule deer hunting, I will gladly be the first to step up and admit I was wrong. That’s just how I roll.

 

[mtwarden]

View attachment 707421

From one tag in the mid 90’s to 45 today, looks like they are doing pretty well

 

[Jason Snyder]

From one tag in the mid 90’s to 45 today, looks like they are doing pretty well

How many bears are killed down there now?

 

[mtwarden]

How many bears are killed down there now?

More than there were in the mid 90’s for sure; no idea now

 

[bigsky2]

Why aren’t you able to finish one conversation point, before deflecting and moving to something else? There isn’t a 30-40/100 buck to doe without deliberate, and concerned efforts to make it so- it isn’t “natural”.

But, as to moving season- What happens when nothing changes in total deer numbers by moving the season to October? Then what? Will you come back and state that you were completely wrong and to open the November hunt back up? Or, will you do what everyone does and push for more restrictions- point restrictions, reduced season length, draw?

Here you go. Buck to doe ratios of 30-40 bucks per 100 does in a unit that’s OTC for residents.

 

[brockel]

How many bears are killed down there now?

 

[OpenCountry]

Dyed in the wool lion hunters are no different than dyed in the wool mule deer hunters, they want to preserve what they have

Bingo. No way I’m going into an area and willingly shooting a bunch of females just to wonder why I can’t cut a track to run dogs on later on.

 

[sneaky]

You are guests. Sorry but that's the way it is. I moved here a few years ago and started paying taxes and making my family part of the community so I could participate as a resident.

That's cool and all, but none of your tax dollars go towards wildlife. Welcome to the northern rockies, where everyone pays more for everything and thinks nonresidents are the problem.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[mtwarden]

But there are 2 things that Montanans hate… the way things are, and change.

This pretty much sums things up

 

[GoatPackr]

One of the group's strongest beliefs is that we need to decouple mule deer and elk seasons from each other. We are one of the only states that still have that and believe that it leads to a higher mule deer harvest from people that are elk hunting that stumble into mule deer. With that in mind, it just gets backed into a corner trying to squeeze as much opportunity into a 3 month time frame without having concurrent seasons. The group strongly believes that you can't piece meal any type of mule deer changes without having unintended adverse effects on elk management. With that in mind we recommended moving archery into August with a 5 week season. I get it, it sucks hunting in August but many states do that are hotter than Montana.

So your group chooses to use bro science and not true data that has been proven by several biologists.
Harvest of bucks has very limited impact on overall long term POPULATION of mule deer. Doe Harvest is what impacts that.
A few hunters shooting a nice buck while out elk hunting does not affect the overall population at all.
Killing a couple predators by those same hunters while in the field probably adds to the future population a lot more due to the fawns not being eaten by them the following spring.

Kris

 

[S.Clancy]

Man, a guy takes a couple days to go turkey hunting....