Montana season change proposal

[ELKdeerMT]

It’s only mediocre if you think that is judged by “big bucks”. It’s not mediocre if “any” buck makes you happy.





Just say that what you really want is more bi deer and stop hiding behind “herd health” and other nonsense. Yes/ the number of MD is lower than it should be- the only thing that will have a measurable effect on that is stop killing females. Shooting males doesn’t move the needle. Once you had enough deer, then it becomes a talk of war is “right”- “mature deer management”, or “fun rut hunting”- neither of which has anything functional with the amount of deer in total- they are separate issues.

Okay, you show me the data on why buck:doe ratios don’t matter for heard sustainment and why age class structure isn’t an indicator of health if the heard. You seem very confident in your thesis. I’d love to see your supporting information. I can find plenty to counter.

 

[Formidilosus]

Granted it’s FWPs data, but a little perusing of historical numbers for HD 704 shows the number of bucks harvested decreasing and total hunter days increasing.

And you don’t think that maybe more people trying to kill “mature” deer isn’t playing a role in that?

That isn’t solely related to hunting bucks in the rut, but it certainly has played a role in the overall buck numbers and distribution.

But I thought come November all young bucks were getting killed left and right? How are they all getting killed if the buck numbers are way down? Interestingly- I’ve hunted that region and every surrounding one- there are no shortage of bucks.

 

[willfrye027]

It’s sad to see these responses from a bunch of guys on a hunting forum. I would expect them from some Montana forkies facebook page but not guys intentionally spending time on a forum to discuss hunting topics. It just confirms the mindset of the average hunter and why they cannot be entrusted to mange a species.

These guys need to keep their heads down and keep fighting the good fight. If this is any indication of what they’re up against, Lord help them!

Maybe the hunters on this site are more knowledgeable than you’re used to..

 

[RutandDie]

Because they are “managed” for different reasons- primarily “quality” which is trophy.

All sheep units in the country- 100% of them in every single state could go to an OTC Unlimited style hunt and not wipe out the sheep. If all you shoot is legal rams, you’re not wiping out the animals. However, if you want to have an easy hunt- and most sheep hunts are near guaranteed, then yes you severely limit the amount of hunters and rams taken. But that doesn’t mean that a MT unlimited style is “bad”. It’s just “managing” for different objectives and desires.

I believe you are discounting the pressure of humans aspect. Sheep would not thrive under those conditions. Some predators have two legs and constant pressure takes it toll. I find it hard to believe you have much experience with Montana mule deer. Whether you are a forky hunter or a mature buck hunter, it isn’t adding up.

 

[willfrye027]

Okay, you show me the data on why buck:doe ratios don’t matter for heard sustainment and why age class structure isn’t an indicator of health if the heard. You seem very confident in your thesis. I’d love to see your supporting information. I can find plenty to counter.

Dude, this data is literally everywhere. Ask your neighborhood biologist.

 

[Formidilosus]

I believe you are discounting the pressure of humans aspect. Sheep would not thrive under those conditions. Some predators have two legs and constant pressure takes it toll. I find it hard to believe you have much experience with Montana mule deer. Whether you are a forky hunter or a mature buck hunter, it isn’t adding up.

Really? Sheep don’t thrive in parks where they are 20ft from humans all day, everyday?

 

[RutandDie]

Really? Sheep don’t thrive in parks where they are 20ft from humans all day, everyday?

So do mule deer in towns. They don’t have a gun to their throat every day.

 

[Formidilosus]

So do mule deer in towns.

The sheep in multiple units that are “premier” hunting units certainly haven’t been bothered by the 5 year olds in crocs holding teddy bears talking to them from 30 yards away that I have seen.

They don’t have a gun to their throat every day.

Deer have guns to their throats every day? I thought this was only about a two week period of the rut that was an issue? Is that not the case?

 

[Ross]

No dog in this fight, but I hunted Montana in the Nwest corner for 20 yrs and high country mule deer since 1980. Not rocket science deer get dumb and stupid in the rut, big, old and young. Idaho took out the two best weeks on the unit 1 tag a couple of years back due to the low Muley numbers. Season now closes 11/14 just as things get fun. To increase the overall numbers and old bucks any bucks, you need to reduce harvest and what is taken, when most vulnerable ie: rut craziness factor. Reduce doe tags and per region reduce the rut hunt when bucks are most vulnerable walking up to you 5 ft away saying are you a doe

 

[Jason Snyder]

And you don’t think that maybe more people trying to kill “mature” deer isn’t playing a role in that?




But I thought come November all young bucks were getting killed left and right? How are they all getting killed if the buck numbers are way down? Interestingly- I’ve hunted that region and every surrounding one- there are no shortage of bucks.

We are arguing circles here. I am basing a portion of my stance on years of anecdotal observations of many days in the field. Some of the committee members are basing theirs on decades of anecdotal observations.

Again shifting baseline. What you see now is awesome in your eyes. What I and they see is a shell of what it was and still could be. Some people do value seeing older age class deer. Some just want to shoot a buck. And everywhere in between. We aren’t talking limited entry quotas and reduced opportunity. We are talking about not shooting bucks when they are dumb as a post. Maybe eliminating doe harvest on public land will solve all issues. I highly doubt it.

I encourage you to reach out to the committee members. I’m not changing your mind and you aren’t changing mine so let’s put an end to this.

 

[jmez]

This has nothing to do with "saving a fuggin species." Embellish much? It is simply about turning western muleys into a commodity like Midwest whitetail farmers have. And the QDM age structure arguments are starting to leak in.

Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2023 using Tapatalk

 

[ELKdeerMT]

Dude, this data is literally everywhere. Ask your neighborhood biologist.

Your saying there’s data out there that suggests units with 6:100 buck to doe ratios, and poor age structures are fine cause the few small bucks left will breed the does and keep the recruitment adequate?

You guys aren’t seeing the entire picture. Yes one young buck will breed many does. Stop the doe killing and things will get better. But if we continue to kill the bucks at a high rate when they’re most vulnerable, coupled with all the other things stacking against them, you’re never going to give them a chance to recover. As mentioned earlier. We as hunters are one of many factors impacting deer and probably not the biggest. Rut hunting just doesn’t make sense anymore.

I’m with Jason on this one. Not like i’m gonna change anyone’s mind on this. I’m out.

 

[ianpadron]

Habitat and predators fellas. That's it.

Giving up opportunity is never the solution, because you don't get those opportunities back. Plenty of mega bucks/bulls get killed every year in MT by the same guys who have always killed mature animals.

Arguing about the minutia of buck:doe ratio and age class has zero influence on overall herd numbers.

Oh, and make it mandatory you have to kill 5 WT does before being issued a muley buck tag in Region 1. Competition on the winter range is a massive problem here.

 

[ianpadron]

Yes. 99% of the posts are about the Eastern 2/3s of the State. Here are some WESTERN MT mule deer proposals…

Pick your species- easily 90%+ of the hunters will select WT.

Mandatory Reporting- They’ll know +/-10,000 how many deer are actually getting killed.

$5 Resident AND nonresident YOUTH WT doe tags. You can buy 5, over the counter, not some stupid $5 app fee with a mailed refund that is less $ than what a stamp is going to cost in a few years.

$20 Resident and hell, maybe $40, nonresident adult WT doe tags. Again, max of 5, OTC.

Up the Mtn lion quota for 5 years. Yes, Cody Carr will call the Governor because this alone will obviously bankrupt his entire business.

F-ck it, do away with orange. I never wear it anyways because… again, nobody actually hunts mule deer in W MT.

Have Hunting District boundaries and unit numbers that are consistent. Right now, 8 of us can be standing on the same ridge and be in 8 different units depending on what tag we have in our pocket (deer, Mtn goat, sheep, bear, moose, lion, grouse, big foot).

Did I mention mandatory reporting?

Do not change anything with W MT season dates.

Wait 5 years, look at your mandatory reporting data and actually survey. Adjust something after actual having some idea of what is going on in W MT.

Have 1 application period and 1 draw instead of 17 like we have currently.

Pass a bill that will prevent all of our f-cking politicians from passing bills about game management.

And last… mandatory reporting.

Hey dude get out of here with your common sense and customized regional solution. Emotion and Bubba myths only!

Btw, agree 100% with your recommendation, specifically on the WTs, things are like vermin here and they dramatically influence muley foraging habitats on the winter range here.

 

[RutandDie]

The sheep in multiple units that are “premier” hunting units certainly haven’t been bothered by the 5 year olds in crocs holding teddy bears talking to them from 30 yards away that I have seen.






Deer have guns to their throats every day? I thought this was only about a two week period of the rut that was an issue? Is that not the case?

The rut lasts longer than 2 weeks I would hope you understand that. Montana general season encompasses the majority of the rut. Currently we have just short of 27k nonresident deer hunters and all of the residents that potentially could all be hunting in the same region or district. The proposal would require hunters to pick a region and a species. Nothing earth shattering plenty of opportunity still provided. We would be warranted to go to limited entry at this point. I applaud the group that is still trying to provide opportunity. If we don’t make some changes you are going to see opportunities lost that we could keep for awhile longer.

 

[406huntermt]

You obviously missed the part where I stated mature bucks will distribute differently?

Shifting baselines. Some of us saw mule deer hunting on the Custer in the 90s and early 2000s. And the Breaks. And watched it crash. And realize it could be what it was.

Like I said, if good enough is good enough then carry on.

My prediction is 10 years from now folks will be wishing they’d seen the warning signs.

Seems like we’re 10 to 15 years late already. Truly is saddening to see what it’s become

 

[brockel]

Seems like we’re 10 to 15 years late already. Truly is saddening to see what it’s become

Sucks knowing my daughters will never get to experience mule deer hunting like I did growing up

 

[rogerthat]

Can be. There is no set buck to doe ratio that is “correct”. All of that comes from eastern and mid western whitetail “farmers” under the guise of “healthy and proper herd management”. Even the saying “herd management” is treating them like cattle.


But what unit exactly has not a single buck over 3.5 years old?





It’s only an issue if you believe that they only right way to hunt deer is to worry about trophy size. If total deer hunters are low, don’t shoot does.

What if I told not long ago less than 10 years ago these units had normally 35-40 bucks. Does that change your opinion? Does that indicate something should probably be changed?

 

[rogerthat]

Because they are “managed” for different reasons- primarily “quality” which is trophy.

All sheep units in the country- 100% of them in every single state could go to an OTC Unlimited style hunt and not wipe out the sheep. If all you shoot is legal rams, you’re not wiping out the animals. However, if you want to have an easy hunt- and most sheep hunts are near guaranteed, then yes you severely limit the amount of hunters and rams taken. But that doesn’t mean that a MT unlimited style is “bad”. It’s just “managing” for different objectives and desires.

Unlimited sheep units only work in the right terrain, habitat, and densities. That’s not a good comparison. Can you imagine an unlimited sheep hunt in the Missouri breaks? LMAO

 

[Formidilosus]

What if I told not long ago less than 10 years ago these units had normally 35-40 bucks. Does that change your opinion? Does that indicate something should probably be changed?

No. 40/100 buck to doe ratio generally only happens by specific human intervention. I have hunted MT heavily for deer for longer than ten years, and while overall there are less total deer, proportionally it hasn’t changed much in most areas. There are certainly regions and units that need serious work on deer hunters, I.E., close all hunting for a period of time, but rut hunting bucks isn’t the cause.