Montana season change proposal

[Turkeygetpwnd38]

I do have to comment again after thinking about this for a few more days. I stated that I thought getting rid of the NR combo tags would help the deer population, but I realize that since we don't have a good way of reporting I have no real idea if this would work.

Blows my mind there is not mandatory reporting. It could be as easy as NV system, you have to log on, fill out report (harvest or not) before you are allowed to apply/buy for the next year. How you could manage a resource you have no idea how many are being killed a year or where they are being killed is crazy.

 

[OpenCountry]

Did you actually read the whole thread and the post I responded to?

Unfortunately yes. Read it and realized you haven’t included anything the group could take back to discuss to better the proposal.

 

[Formidilosus]

That’s what the proposal brings to the table. Ending the rut hunt for mule deer. I’m really not trying to read between the lines, but I’m guessing you’re against the thought of it based off your comments throughout this thread so it’s an honest question.

No- I’m against hunters lying about why they want things. And- hunters wanting to just be able to hunt deer during the rut. That has just as much, if not more validity as “big bucks”.

 

[OpenCountry]

No- I’m against hunters lying about why they want things.

You won’t answer the question. Got it.

 

[Formidilosus]

You won’t answer the question. Got it.

What question?

 

[ddowning]

Spring surveys show Region 6 mule deer are down 35% from 2023. More than half of the region is hovering around 6 bucks:100 does.

I don't know shit about Mule deer. If I saw that sex distribution with WT in iowa, I would call that catastrophic. Will 6 bucks breed 100 does in a pressured deer herd? Will having a second or third rut result in fawn recruitment issues? I'm a flatlander. I know virtually nothing about mule deer.

I will say, in Iowa the rut hunt for WT is archery only. It does improve the age class of the deer here. Also, compared to other states, we don't have great habitat, but have a ton of deer in Southern and Central iowa. Before wt became big business, farmers would beg you to hunt. Some still will, but a lot of ground now has leased hunting rights or is owned by the hunter and leased by the farmer.

There is mandatory reporting of all harvests and they are collecting more data than just success rates here. Doe tags are first come basis, but are limited. Some areas of the state have even become buck only (historically, all tags were either antlerless only or either sex) with the recent ehd problems (this is after having thousands of tags per county in the 2010 time frame). It sounds like there is a lack of effort in management in MT. Also, from my understanding, Mule deer are a lot harder to manage given the habitat loss, non-human predators, and the migration. Whitetail can literally live anywhere, and if living around Mule deer, probably reduce the food and water available (I could be ignorant and wrong about this). I would think significant effort would be applied to manage the resource vs guessing. Also, if wt are competing for the same habitat as Mule deer, kill them all in areas of good Mule deer habitat. Wt can live anywhere. You will have them somewhere regardless, even if not in the good Mule deer areas.

I also agree about no government money to landowners who do not allow hunting. There are swaths of land with hundreds of deer per square mile here. They are leased by big Antler hunters who shoot one or two bucks per year and kill nothing else. If elk are so bad they are eating a rancher out of a living, they sould be letting hunters solve the problem or shut their mouths. The only govt (taxpayer) money should happen when the problem cannot be solved by hunters, even with access.

 

[cgasner1]

It's about "seeing big bucks easier"? Weird. I'm not sure what that means.

Do you mean it's about "making it a possibility that a big buck, or an older buck is alive, or exists"? Because that makes more sense.

There's never an "easier" time to see the biggest available bucks, than during the entire month of November.

It's odd to think that somebody could possibly think 6 bucks/100 does or a male average age of 1.5 years being something "healthy".

Montana will never get better when this is the mindset and standards for wildlife.

Besides moving it out of the rut. It also helps by the fact that the season will be warmer so the deer won’t be up eating all day they will post up in the shade making them harder to see. Another fun fact is deer are much harder to spot without a white backdrop. I know that you know all this thought thanks for your support


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Randy11]

@Formidilosus

Going back and reading your posts, it seems that maybe you missed that whitetail and mule deer seasons would be separate? Each hunter would have to choose to hunt one or the other.

I think this might be why you're so adamant we need to "think about it", and almost everyone else who has read the proposal has agreed that it would help deer hunting pressure.

You keep claiming that each member only wants larger mule deer bucks to hunt.. Well, guess what? If this season went enacted as-is (it won't) I'd likely never have a mule deer tag in Montana again. How does that fit in to you having a group of people you've never met so pegged? Or maybe you have met me? You won't even admit whether or not your a resident so I have no idea what your motives are, and won't make something up, like you have been about us.

 

[Andyram_18]

Blows my mind there is not mandatory reporting. It could be as easy as NV system, you have to log on, fill out report (harvest or not) before you are allowed to apply/buy for the next year. How you could manage a resource you have no idea how many are being killed a year or where they are being killed is crazy.

And still a few states not doing it to. Whether participants lie or not… most guys are dying for an opportunity to talk about their hunt. Have a hard time believing they’d lie!

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus

Going back and reading your posts, it seems that maybe you missed that whitetail and mule deer seasons would be separate? Each hunter would have to choose to hunt one or the other.

And the vast majority will choose Mule deer. So that doesn’t “help” the deer.

I think this might be why you're so adamant we need to "think about it", and almost everyone else who has read the proposal has agreed that it would help deer hunting pressure.

I’m not adamant about anything except that “trophy” hunters shouldn’t be the ones pushing decisions in every single state. The vast majority do not want what you purpose, and even if they did, what you are purposing will not reduce “pressure” or the amount of bucks killed.
It’s ignorance bred of no experience in other states that have “relieved pressure”. It doesn’t do that. It causes people to shoot the first legal deer they see. Then, because the seasons don’t overlap lots of people will hunt mule deer in october and elk in November- including me. I haven’t killed a MD in 6 years in MT, if this change happens I can all but guarantee that I will because I won’t be splitting my time between elk and deer- and everyone I hunt with in the same.
But I am also not going off of just my group- this has happened historically. This plan/proposal will only reduce time and options, while not “helping” the deer at all.

If the deer numbers are too low- stop shooting does- all of them. If that won’t bring the numbers back up, then stop ALL deer hunting for a couple of years until they return.

You keep claiming that each member only wants larger mule deer bucks to hunt..

So…. It’s not about more older bucks?

Well, guess what? If this season went enacted as-is (it won't) I'd likely never have a mule deer tag in Montana again. How does that fit in to you having a group of people you've never met so pegged?

It isn’t about being pegged- YOU ARE LITERALLY stung that this will result in older, more mature buck- are you not? If not- then what is the point? If that is the point, then IT IS about bigger bucks. You can’t have it both ways.

Why do people have such a hard time admitting that they don’t care about anything but “big bucks”? That is fine if you do- maybe that’s what I care about too. BUT I don’t in anyway believe that is for me to force on other people.

Or maybe you have met me? You won't even admit whether or not you’re a resident so I have no idea what your motives are,

Because where I live is a red herring. Where someone lives has nothing to do with whether your/y’all’s plan is a good one, or if it will even work to do what you think it will. It should be standing on its own merit.

However, I do disagree with removing November mule deer hunting. Montana residents enjoy it, in unit that most complain about there are enough deer once die tags stop being issued, and there are LE units for those that care about big buck. Also, this “plan” will not result in a healthier herd- you will absolutely have the same amount of people or more chasing them in October. Idaho has October seasons, and yet lots of little deer get killed and it hasn’t worked to “give them a break”.

Quite frankly either you, and/or the other members are ignorant of how people and seasons work, or you/they aren’t and you aren’t being honest- there isn’t a middle ground here.

Shifting mule deer seasons to Oct won’t change how many east and SE Montana little deer get killed. They will still get smoked by everyone. So yay, the only hung you’ve done then is reduce a very unique and cool hunt- mule deer in the rut.

and won't make something up, like you have been about us.

I haven’t made up anything- I have repeated and quoted exactly what has been stated in this thread. Your measures in this recommendation is for “helping” mule deer bucks- is it not?

 

[velvet muley]

I am one of the people that came up with this proposal and I’d be happy to address any questions. There has been a pretty robust discussion on the proposal on Hunt Talk as well that would be worth a browse.

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Moving archer season to start Aug. 25 is not a good idea, I've hunted elk in late August and the harvest numbers will go down considerably. Keep it the way it is and just have it overlap for the 1 week in October, I don't see any benefits by moving the season start to Aug. Also picking the regions to hunt in for general deer would by a crying shame, a lot of people travel across the state to hunt with friends and family.

 

[Randy11]

@Formidilosus

You are blatantly lying about what I've said. Look at the attached screenshots, these were both from today. Show me where I spoke of antler size?

My motivation is to distribute hunting pressure and create a higher buck to doe ratio on public land. I have said NOTHING about antler size or buck age, yet you continue to parrot it as fact like I have.

The parts of Montana I hunt have 75% and all the way up to 99% whitetail harvest. Most of those hunters will choose to hunt whitetail in the rut, and lift pressure off the October mule deer season.

If you're going to keep shitting doo-dooing on the proposal, you need to at least try to understand the situation. You're obviously very naive to what's happening here.

I'm done responding to you and I'm done on the site.

 

[Greenhorn]

@Randy11 don’t let the clown show get you down - your time and input is greatly valued.

@Formidilosus don’t you have some scopes to drop or something?

 

[Jason Snyder]

It seems a little disingenuous to think moving a mule deer hunt out of the peak rut won’t result in higher buck escapement, which in turn will lead to higher buck to doe ratios. Bigger deer and a more diverse age class are certainly a byproduct of this.

 

[Jason Snyder]

The Missouri Breaks and Custer mule deer herds have both fallen victim to concurrent deer and elk seasons.

Liberal cow hunting opportunities led to a lot of hunting parties that had a cow tag or two and a bunch of deer tags. A lot of deer died in the early 2000s as a result and the pressure has continued ever since.

A member of this committee is a long time friend and said the same thing. Elk hunting opportunity has increased the mule deer pressure well above what it used to be. For the record, he likes big deer. Personally, I don’t care about size. But, the available number of mule deer bucks to the public has no doubt diminished greatly to the public in the last few decades.

I’ve seen it and I know for fact a few others commenting in this thread have witnessed it. I don’t know if it’s just about big deer to some. I really don’t care. The quality of deer hunting has been spiraling for decades.

To quote an unnamed FWP wildlife biologist “we have half as many deer as we did 50 years ago, but we still have almost the exact same season structure. Make sense of that one“.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

For those of you in opposition to this proposal; take a look at Wyoming. It literally is the same habitat separated by lines on a map. There is no doubt in my mind that our management practices , liberal season structures, and rut hunting are significantly impacting the quality of our public land deer, elk, and antelope heards. Look at Colorado. Look at any other state if your looking for a more quality experience.

@t_carlson - The Bridger deer analogy your arguing is a joke. Bozeman used to have 20k people back in the 80’s when those special deer were around. It’s 5 minutes from town to hunt the bridgers. We’re now approaching 60k people. The urban development, trail use, traffic, poaching, ect. Are all factors contributing to the decline of that heard. They have collar information of deer moving from the park and wintering in the Bridgers back when there were big deer. You think they still do that with housing development after development going up in the paradise valley? Increased traffic from Livingston to Bozeman? Common man! To act like it’s a case study to “debunk” the effectiveness of increased management is ridiculous.

I hope we get somewhere with these proposals. Maybe they’re not perfect but I’m glad these guys are putting in this effort. Something’s gotta change.

 

[KurtR]

Taking the rifle season out of the rut will get less bucks killed that is just a plain ass fact. If you don’t believe that you don’t understand how the rut works. See it first hand every year a bunch of people just stumble f&”k into bucks they never knew where around,

 

[Jason Snyder]

Do you really think it will be that big of an impact

Yes

 

[MTSasquatch]

There’s a lot about the proposal I disagree with. Essentially, it paints a majority of Montanas big game hunting in a fashion that bends to people who are not aligned with the majority of Montanan’s desires for their game and opportunity.

Getting a handle on mule deer issues is one thing, but this proposal is a bit much on all other fronts.

You’d be better of titling it from the cherry picked managemt strategies you took from what seems about 3-4 other states.

If you don’t like hunting in Montana, you’re welcome to hunt in any of those other states. Survey after survey shows Montanans like the way they presently hunt and don’t want it changed.

 

[ELKdeerMT]

There’s a lot about the proposal I disagree with. Essentially, it paints a majority of Montanas big game hunting in a fashion that bends to people who are not aligned with the majority of Montanan’s desires for their game and opportunity.

Getting a handle on mule deer issues is one thing, but this proposal is a bit much on all other fronts.

You’d be better of titling it from the cherry picked managemt strategies you took from what seems about 3-4 other states.

If you don’t like hunting in Montana, you’re welcome to hunt in any of those other states. Survey after survey shows Montanans like the way they presently hunt and don’t want it changed.

Trust me I would move to Wyoming if I could swing it. The hunting in Montana is that bad. I don’t know a person that hunts that’s satisfied with where it’s going. I don’t live in an echo chamber either. Friends all across the state that are serious hunters.

So when there’s not an animal left what’s your opportunity then? Management is meant to be “adaptive” to the health of the species. That’s why we have a FWP. Montanas exploded in population and land development and the regs have essentially stayed the same for the last couple decades. How could that work with any other managed resource?

Do you realize these initiatives are meant to improve the hunters experience. Less pressure will keep more animals that are less disturbed on public lands. Go hunt in Wyoming and see what it’s like. They have shorter seasons but you don’t need 2.5 months of pounding the snot out of the forest service to find an animal there.