Montana reducing nonresident deer tags

[Chris in TN]

You're making a ton of friends here, a Southern gentleman really.

Inviting the feds to wield more power over the plebes who are freeloading their way to mule deer nirvana...what a wild, and completely tone deaf take on the West.

Truth isn't usually popular. I can live without any new friends.

The point isn't - even remotely - that freeloaders get nirvana. The point is the opposite - this entire discussion is a 'tragedy of the commons' issue. People who get free stuff always end up with low quality.

 

[Chris in TN]

"If you wanna hunt big deer, and not see anyone else, just pull out your checkbook and make a reservation like I do feller"- some guy in Tennessee

I appreciate the attempts at personal attacks. It really underscores how bankrupt your actual arguments are when all you have left is to attack me for daring to live elsewhere.

Thank you. I genuinely appreciate it as it speaks volumes about you and your weak arguments at the same time.

 

[peterk123]

My point is crystal clear to anyone who wants to u destined it.

Some don’t want to.

Agreed all the way down.

I have no issues with locals getting preference but living in the east where I either buy my own land or pay for access, it's really annoying to see other people who get a quality mule deer tag every year or two and take for granted that it's just normal for states to use federal lands to subsidize state resident hunters. I don't think most hunters do this, either - like in this thread, you have hundreds of resident mule deer hunters on this forum, but only a handful defending the 'us poor residents' mindset.

Also, it's humorous to make a point in two sentences then have people stumble over understanding it. I don't think they're dumb, they just don't want to grasp the point because grasping the point would force them to recognize the problem.

Thankfully if I want to hunt mule deer there are still plenty of places I can pay-to-play. Call that 'the king's deer' if you wish, it's how most easterners hunt, and I'm pretty OK with it.

Oh look. Another MT resident that thinks 'landowners have the right to set terms on the use of their land' is some sort of contrived and biased argument.

(hint: it's literally a cornerstone of western civilization)

Or that it's 'all about my interests' when I haven't had a mule deer tag in 30 years.

lol.

Oh look, another easterner pissed because hunting blows where he lives.

Do what I did, move. Seriously, I could not justify the cost to hunt out west each year. More importantly, I wanted to improve the quality of life for me and my family. You know, get away from pissed off, stressed out people that are overly aggressive and do nothing but argue.

 

[Ewludwig]

Wierd how such tiny wins cause quite the commotion.

Not weird at all when access keeps getting diminished while costs increase for the NR. Crap, I pay the same to hunt deer in MN as you all do to hunt deer AND elk. And that is rifle only. I have to pay additional $ for an archery or muzzleloader tag. And once I kill a buck, I’m done for the season statewide.

What’s weird is holding 8 deer tags….hell even three is a lot….and then wondering why there is a problem. But you are correct, Kurt, a win is a win.

 

[ianpadron]

I appreciate the attempts at personal attacks. It really underscores how bankrupt your actual arguments are when all you have left is to attack me for daring to live elsewhere.

Thank you. I genuinely appreciate it as it speaks volumes about you and your weak arguments at the same time.

No no no, poking fun at a guy who has admittedly never stepped foot in Montana to hunt mule deer blowing up a thread on addressing the declining mule deer herds, with his pointless dissertation on federal land ownership is the furthest thing from ad hominem.

Multiple members have explained that your "kings deer" approach has ZERO place in the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, and provided case law that you requested that supports PTD and the feds limited involvement in managing hunting, only to have you dig your heels in deeper and tell us we are all entitled freeloaders (who obviously pay no taxes, support local businesses, schools, etc. in Montana).

So yeah, call us entitled freeloaders, expect some blowback.

 

[ianpadron]

Not weird at all when access keeps getting diminished while costs increase for the NR. Crap, I pay the same to hunt deer in MN as you all do to hunt deer AND elk. And that is rifle only. I have to pay additional $ for an archery or muzzleloader tag. And once I kill a buck, I’m done for the season statewide.

What’s weird is holding 8 deer tags….hell even three is a lot….and then wondering why there is a problem. But you are correct, Kurt, a win is a win.

Dude...read the whole thread, read the regs...DO SOMETHING before chiming in with the same "3-8 deer tags are the reason MT herds are declining" nonsense.

Montana's mule deer are in a bad place, the multiple doe whitetail tags that I and many others punch on top of our general buck tags are the furthest thing from a causative agent, and anyone who gives a rip about mule deer should be asking us to punch more.

 

[ianpadron]

Not weird at all when access keeps getting diminished while costs increase for the NR. Crap, I pay the same to hunt deer in MN as you all do to hunt deer AND elk. And that is rifle only. I have to pay additional $ for an archery or muzzleloader tag. And once I kill a buck, I’m done for the season statewide.

What’s weird is holding 8 deer tags….hell even three is a lot….and then wondering why there is a problem. But you are correct, Kurt, a win is a win.

I grew up in Wisconsin, it sucked. I moved. Now I like where I live. I thank the Lord daily that I'm a man and not a tree

 

[Ewludwig]

Dude...read the whole thread, read the regs...DO SOMETHING before chiming in with the same "3-8 deer tags are the reason MT herds are declining" nonsense.

Montana's mule deer are in a bad place, the multiple doe whitetail tags that I and many others punch on top of our general buck tags are the furthest thing from a causative agent, and anyone who gives a rip about mule deer should be asking us to punch more.

I actually did, DUDE. How does holding that many tags not equate to pressure? I’m generally curious. Please explain how shooting does help populations?

 

[3forks]

Oh look, another easterner pissed because hunting blows where he lives.

Do what I did, move. Seriously, I could not justify the cost to hunt out west each year. More importantly, I wanted to improve the quality of life for me and my family. You know, get away from pissed off, stressed out people that are overly aggressive and do nothing but argue.

He’s never going to move to MT… there’s only two Cracker Barrel locations in the the entire state.

 

[wind gypsy]

Over half of Mule Deer in R6 and R7 being killed by NR is a problem. There would be more tools to address that problem if MT actually managed deer based on the realities of each part of the state rather than insist on treating deer and elk the same and having them be open OTC in most of the state from Sept through Nov.

 

[Chris in TN]

Oh look, another easterner pissed because hunting blows where he lives.

Do what I did, move. Seriously, I could not justify the cost to hunt out west each year. More importantly, I wanted to improve the quality of life for me and my family. You know, get away from pissed off, stressed out people that are overly aggressive and do nothing but argue.

lol. Deny everything, make counteraccusations.

Just lol.

 

[jkoehle1]

Over half of Mule Deer in R6 and R7 being killed by NR is a problem. There would be more tools to address that problem if MT actually managed deer based on the realities of each part of the state rather than insist on treating deer and elk the same and having them be open OTC in most of the state from Sept through Nov.

Exactly.

They really arent all that different from antelope and with modern glass and rifles theyre almost as easy to kill when theres roads everywhere. Even in october.

The easy button is regulating them like antelope.

 

[ianpadron]

I actually did, DUDE. How does holding that many tags not equate to pressure? I’m generally curious. Please explain how shooting does help populations?

uhhhh...the main lever for population control is shooting does. Vast majority of B tags in MT are for whitetails. West of the divide, top 3 causative agent of mule deer decline is whitetail infringement on winter range. Need I continue?

Again, when out of staters chime in, and are so obviously clueless on what is actually going on here...every single one of us residents gets a little less welcoming about NRs.

 

[ianpadron]

Over half of Mule Deer in R6 and R7 being killed by NR is a problem. There would be more tools to address that problem if MT actually managed deer based on the realities of each part of the state rather than insist on treating deer and elk the same and having them be open OTC in most of the state from Sept through Nov.

THIS ^

R6, R7, and parts of 4 and 5 need to have quotas and shorter seasons until the herd recovers.

Totally different story in the mountains

 

[Chris in TN]

uhhhh...the main lever for population control is shooting does. Vast majority of B tags in MT are for whitetails. West of the divide, top 3 causative agent of mule deer decline is whitetail infringement on winter range. Need I continue?

Again, when out of staters chime in, and are so obviously clueless on what is actually going on here...every single one of us residents gets a little less welcoming about NRs.

FWIW I have zero issue with shooting whitetail does as it relates to migitating habitat degradation for mule deer in traditional mule deer range.

Likewise I'm all in favor of shooting wild horses and burros where they impact sheep range.

Zero problem with that.

 

[Tradchef]

Mandatory harvest reporting would be a much better option for tracking mule deer buck harvest, no argument from me there.

HOWEVER...

The whiteys that make up the majority of the B tag harvest (because they make up the majority of B tags) don't factor into this NR/Rez debate over MD numbers in the first place, and un-ironically whitetail competition has been shown to be one of the main issues with struggling mule deer herds in MT. For discerning NRs, they should be pushing for us residents to use all of our B tags on whiteys and ask for more.

As more and more hunters opt into the E-tag option here, bios are actually collecting fairly accurate data, especially on B tags since they are tied to a specific region or unit vs general.

When fellas who don't live here, like the guy I was originally replying to, pretend to have all the solutions and claim residents are killing multiple mule deer bucks, I'm going to step in and call out that every single time.

Exactly!!! We are allowed one general deer tag for a whitetail or mule deer buck. If you draw a specific mule buck tag in the lottery last I knew you forfeit the right to use your general buck tag state wide and focus on your specific draw only tag. So limiting you to one buck tag once again. Mule deer B tags are a draw only just like the non residents. We are able to buy whitetail B tags in units that allow it. Some it's one and some it is up to 6 and mostly it's going to be on private land where the numbers are super high. So if guys think we are killing multiple bucks that don't live here I will reiterate Ianpadron and call that out as well. Read the regs before you shoot your mouth off.

 

[Ewludwig]

uhhhh...the main lever for population control is shooting does. Vast majority of B tags in MT are for whitetails. West of the divide, top 3 causative agent of mule deer decline is whitetail infringement on winter range. Need I continue?

Again, when out of staters chime in, and are so obviously clueless on what is actually going on here...every single one of us residents gets a little less welcoming about NRs.

Totally agree with population controls in areas where there’s infringement. However, those are very specific areas so why not make the management decisions more focused? Not sure how cutting 2500 nonresident tags, solves the problem. Especially when you don’t even have mandatory reporting on actual harvest. I am happy to change my viewpoints based on fact and intelligent discourse. Unfortunately, when people start insulting others it’s very difficult to do that. It’s an especially difficult pill to swallow when we are funding the FWP budget to the extent that we do. I wouldn’t be able to afford your expensive tags if I went around insulting my best customers. Even if they were in the wrong on something and needed to be educated.

 

[S.Clancy]

Over half of Mule Deer in R6 and R7 being killed by NR is a problem. There would be more tools to address that problem if MT actually managed deer based on the realities of each part of the state rather than insist on treating deer and elk the same and having them be open OTC in most of the state from Sept through Nov.

Not really and it's because eastern MT has been historically underutilized by the primary consumer, resident hunters.

I'll attach some figures that show hunters, days, and harvest vs population regionally.

 

[wind gypsy]

I actually did, DUDE. How does holding that many tags not equate to pressure? I’m generally curious. Please explain how shooting does help populations?

Because the primary thing they are trying to do is cut down on pressure in Eastern MT. People dont have multiple buck tags and there is hardly any doe tags legal on public in eastern MT. So pointing to 3-8 tags is either not logical, misleading, or disingenuous in relation to the issue.

If residents had 3-8 tags in the areas of concern non-residents wouldn't be taking over half of the deer killed.

 

[ianpadron]

Totally agree with population controls in areas where there’s infringement. However, those are very specific areas so why not make the management decisions more focused? Not sure how cutting 2500 nonresident tags, solves the problem. Especially when you don’t even have mandatory reporting on actual harvest. I am happy to change my viewpoints based on fact and intelligent discourse. Unfortunately, when people start insulting others it’s very difficult to do that. It’s an especially difficult pill to swallow when we are funding the FWP budget to the extent that we do. I wouldn’t be able to afford your expensive tags if I went around insulting my best customers. Even if they were in the wrong on something and needed to be educated.

How do you not see how cutting 2500 tags, predominantly used the in the most affected region...helps the population?

As Wyoming and Idaho have already demonstrated, there are plenty of people willing to pay insane NR prices and continue to fund the agency, so threatening residents like our game agency is going to crumble if a few tags are slashed is nothing but a bluff at this point.