Moa vs hunting?

[BLJ]

What is it in human psychology that allows people to ignore clear evidence and still believe they’re more capable than they actually are?

When you figure that out PM me and we’ll both be rich.

 

[Formidilosus]

What is it in human psychology that allows people to ignore clear evidence and still believe they’re more capable than they actually are?

Parents, family, and society that teach children self delusion and never force them to look for evidence, see reality, and modify behavior.

 

[Lionheart]

View attachment 938929This is what brought the question up in my mind today. ( ignore the bottom shot. It was my son with his .223). These are two five shot groups. 200yards right at about or under 1 inch. This is with my hunting rifle, off a bench, in zero wind, factory ammo. The part that pissed me off and got me thinking was on the upper dot I flew a shot higher and further right than the rest of the shots. I was legitimately mad about it until I started actually thinking about the level of accuracy “needed” to hunt at my self imposed max range of 500 yards. I was curious if there was a rule of thumb when it came to moa off a bench and hunting distances. I fully understand that more accuracy is more better.

What gun/caliber is that? Is it for sale lol?

 

[wind gypsy]

ROAL is street slang, used by children.

 

[Dan Carey]

View attachment 940217

apple's and orange's?

 

[Jordan Smith]

Curious what this looks like for a 5 shot group that is 1.75”

Asking as that is what most of my Fudd buddies shoot from their rifles. I would like to show them the hit % at 400 yards. But then again it may show them they have a 70+% chance and would make a poor decision.

If we take 1000 shots per group, we see that the average group size trends towards 3x the size of the average 3-shot group.

If we assume an average of 1.33 MOA for 3-shot groups and 1.75 MOA for 5-shot groups, this becomes 4 MOA for 1000-shot groups. Using 4 MOA as the ES for the rifle/load/shooter precision, we still mostly keep 1000 shots on a ~12" target at 400 m, assuming some skill in minimizing the other uncertainties involved (wind estimates within +/- 2 mph, etc.)

 

[RWT]

If we take 1000 shots per group, we see that the average group size trends towards 3x the size of the average 3-shot group.

If we assume an average of 1.33 MOA for 3-shot groups and 1.75 MOA for 5-shot groups, this becomes 4 MOA for 1000-shot groups. Using 4 MOA as the ES for the rifle/load/shooter precision, we still mostly keep 1000 shots on a ~12" target at 400 m, assuming some skill in minimizing the other uncertainties involved (wind estimates within +/- 2 mph, etc.)

Thank you. This is scary. Being the most accurate Fudd in my group of Fudds I see this and feel confident that I could make an ethical shot at 400. I am currently shooting 6” 10 shot groups at 300. Farthest I can shoot on my place. My 10 shoot groups at 100 hover between 1.1& 1.5 MOA. My Fudd buddies will see this and take from it a 97% chance of a hit. I see the dispersion and feel like I need to practice more.

I’ve noticed the difference in wind call between my 6.5cm and 223 at 300 requires more thought in the 223. I need more ammo and a longer range.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Have an accuracy obsessed buddy who is also hunting obsessed from very young, and shoots a lot and competes as well, best running shot coyote killer I've seen, I attribute his success far more to the shooting he does, not the tiny groups he makes on the range, he just enjoys seeking perfection, and loves chasing things well past the point of practical.

I choose factory available accuracy and only care about hunting, shoot a lot less than he does, the tags we fold aren't really much different, I grew up hunting obsessed as well and still did lots of shooting, no competing. He does get it done on running coyotes better that's fore sure lol, but he does a lot more shooting at running coyotes as well as silhouette competition, otherwise we're both good closers on big game when it counts.

In test runs against each other though I'm generally running a simpler solution setup and faster to 1st round hit on whatever sheep rock or bear rock we tested for fun against each other. I won the sheep rock at 701 yard competition and he won the bear rock one at 575, I shot first both times over pack, and faster, as I was just range and dial to that number on a cut turret for one and the other was reticle hold with memorized hash marks (lr duplex), I shot factory .270's and ammo, he shot his f-class 28" 300wm custom on sheep one and custom .264 win mag on other (I think 26" barrel), hand loads, high bc stuff, itty bitty groups, big charts taped to stock and dialled, he takes a lot longer to break shot in these situations though.

We both killed the imaginary sheep and bear in those two compares. I pinwheeled the 701 yard rock, he spined it and off on windage despite being dead calm, he pinwheeled the 575 yard one I was around 5-6" out on windage and a couple inches out on elevation, I gave him the wind call on the 575 yard one after saying I over compensated the wind hold (it was screaming at us on slight angle). He just doesn't really set up his rifles much different for hunting vs range or competition for trying to boil it down to make it faster to solution so he goes through all the same motions for ranging, consulting chart data and then dialling. He's generally way too light on trigger for hunting also, he did touch off on accident with a coyote that was coming into us and he moved gun when coyote dropped into valley in front of us and would have popped out in front of him, so....the range set up does bite back in hunting situations but still a killer all round. Oh forgot, he also missed biggest whitetail of his life being rotation out on zero but not totally his fault has he loaned rifle out and just didn't check for that when it came back still on 'zero'. He would have killed that deer if he hadn't loaned the rifle out (6 dasher, 1" 5-shot groups at 300 yards his type of acceptable accuracy lol), offhand and shot a couple times after it ran from first miss, just an equipment set up for task at hand situation more than anything. I try to convince him to simplify his hunting setups but he is set in his ways and so am I lol. I care about one thing, he does too much of other things so just runs one system for all.

 

[06 SB]

I hand load and can always get better than 1.5 MOA but if I cannot it is not a deal breaker. I remember when 3 MOA was touted as a good enough group for deer out the 300 yards. I am glad we have improved that standard. YouTube boobs push that anything greater than 1 MOA is a "horrible" shooting rifle. It is not. Most of my rifles would be "barely acceptable" according to these guys but I have loads that are consistent in speed (low ES/SD) and around 1 MOA accuracy for 10 or more shots. Just because a rifle is less than 1 MOA at 100 does not equate to 5 MOA at 500. Velocity variance starts to affect group size past about 300 yards. If your ES is 75fps, then your group can be great at 100 yds and absolutely horrible at 500.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I hand load and can always get better than 1.5 MOA but if I cannot it is not a deal breaker. I remember when 3 MOA was touted as a good enough group for deer out the 300 yards. I am glad we have improved that standard. YouTube boobs push that anything greater than 1 MOA is a "horrible" shooting rifle. It is not. Most of my rifles would be "barely acceptable" according to these guys but I have loads that are consistent in speed (low ES/SD) and around 1 MOA accuracy for 10 or more shots. Just because a rifle is less than 1 MOA at 100 does not equate to 5 MOA at 500. Velocity variance starts to affect group size past about 300 yards. If your ES is 75fps, then your group can be great at 100 yds and absolutely horrible at 500.

The sample size makes a big difference. A 1 MOA group for 3 shots is quite different from a 1 MOA group for 10 shots. Greater than 1 MOA for 3, and even 5, shots is larger than I like from my rifles. But 1 MOA for 10 shots from a hunting rifle is very good, IME. As I posted above, with large sample sizes we expect 5-shot groups to be about 1.3x larger than 3-shot groups, and 10-shot groups to be about 1.6x larger. If we were to shoot 1000-shot groups, we would expect their average size to be almost 3x the size of the average 3-shot group.

Guys talk about the size of groups that their rifles are capable of, but it's important to include the sample size in that claim.

 

[schmidty3]

I think i had an aneurism getting to this point in the thread...

Those boys have some serious sexual chemistry going. Just meet up at a shady motel already!

There's this thing called NRL hunter. Its a Pretty good match. Go find one and shoot it. There's a decent standardized test


....

Sheesh....

Anyway...

Ive been doing the nrl stuff. My gun shoots pretty well. I'd wager to say sub moa. But I also don't blast 10 shot groups either. Just call it sub moa based on a composite of experience with the gun.

I...in fact....seem to be a pretty decent shooter and can see the benefits of the accuracy of said rifle.


I...in fact...am a shitty wind caller.

My shooting system grows well above moa in the wind. Especially weird winds. And im still finishing top 1/3 at worst in nrls.

A 2 moa gun in the hands of a great shooter would probably kick my ass.

Im building a 28" 25 creed to push fast to compensate for my inadequacies. My new 25 prc proved to me that speed helps my suckiness.

A 1/4 moa gun does you no good if you cant call wind. Thats the biggest factor once we start moving past 400 or so.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Just because a rifle is less than 1 MOA at 100 does not equate to 5 MOA at 500. Velocity variance starts to affect group size past about 300 yards. If your ES is 75fps, then your group can be great at 100 yds and absolutely horrible at 500.

This is a way over exaggerated concept that usually stems from small samples as well. When you start shooting 10-20 shot strings in front of a chrono, 75-100fps ES is not uncommon to see out of a hunting rifle. The 9 ES 2 SD BS you see on the interwebs is from cherry picked 3 shot groups. You can still shoot small groups at long range because the low shot could be the fast one, and the high shot could be the slow one, and they could converge on target. Some silly characters call that "positive compensation" and believe they can control and "tune" it, but it's all part of the fallacy. The only thing real is the target, and you have to shoot the shots to see where they actually go.

 

[06 SB]

This is a way over exaggerated concept that usually stems from small samples as well. When you start shooting 10-20 shot strings in front of a chrono, 75-100fps ES is not uncommon to see out of a hunting rifle. The 9 ES 2 SD BS you see on the interwebs is from cherry picked 3 shot groups. You can still shoot small groups at long range because the low shot could be the fast one, and the high shot could be the slow one, and they could converge on target. Some silly characters call that "positive compensation" and believe they can control and "tune" it, but it's all part of the fallacy. The only thing real is the target, and you have to shoot the shots to see where they actually go.

Exaggerated how? It is not a concept. It is reality. Bullets drop more when launched slower and therefore will be less accurate when velocities are not consistent. A 100fps difference is about 4" more drop at 500 and probably around 2 feet or more at 1000. Where in my quote did I write 9/2 for ES/SD? I do agree with you that YT boobs will tout low ES/SD with only 3 or 5 shots.

Here is my Remington 700 in 6.5CM from last week with 142gr SMKs. A 10 shot group just over 1" at 100 yards. The two high/right flyers were all me but I do not ignore them. If I was concentrating more, it should have been less than 1". The ES on these 10 shots...31fps. These 10 consists of 2 separate 5 shot strings letting the barrel cool in between. It has been shot out to 900 & 1000 yards quite a few times. It is not a bench gun by any means but it is a heck of a hunting rifle.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Exaggerated how? It is not a concept. It is reality. Bullets drop more when launched slower and therefore will be less accurate when velocities are not consistent.

Not when dispersion and random distribution enter the chat. Like I said, the low one can be the high velocity, and the high one be the low, and they converge. Even Hornady's senior ballistician states dispersion is pretty much linear out to 500 yards. It's just not as big of a hindrance as a ballistic calculator would lead you to believe by running numbers on individual shots. I've recorded 75fps spreads on large sample testing of my load in my 6.5 PRC, and also taken a decent amount of cold bore shots at my 10" CBC qualifying target at 804 yards, and over the last 10 or so if I missed it was due to an under or over estimated wind call, not elevation. I recorded all of them through a spotter to get as much feedback as possible.

 

[Marbles]

It is not hard to load to an ES under 75 in a hunting rifle for large samples.

Other then trimming brass (safety issues and measuring mine are frequently too long) I pretty much use @Formidilosus reloading method.

RCBS dies, RCBS Charge Master, never anneal nor check neck tension.

This was the first sample over 30 shots I came across in my velocity data.

 

[Harvey_NW]

It is not hard to load to an ES under 75 in a hunting rifle for large samples.

I think that can be cartridge and component dependent. But I'd take a load that repeatedly does .6" for 10 shots with an ES of 75 over a 1.5" load with an ES of 15.

 

[pathnz]

ES is a bad measurement , use SD to talk about velocity consistency.

10-12 is standard for good components with no special treatment.

 

[Marbles]

I think that can be cartridge and component dependent. But I'd take a load that repeatedly does .6" for 10 shots with an ES of 75 over a 1.5" load with an ES of 15.

The key is process markers cannot be used as a replacement for good results. Results always win, process markers are just a guide in getting to results. Sub 1.5 MOA is all I need (from a large sample). For either of those, I would consider other factors as well in load selection (bullet, pressure, Etc). Well, I hope I would, sometimes number just make me happy.

My point really was that ES can be smaller for large samples even without an intensive reloading process. That was a 243 using Starline brass so not exactly premo components.

I have similar results in 223. Brass is Federal.

Some people would certainly chase smaller SD and ES for both my examples. For the ranges those rifles stay above 1800 fps, doing so would be wasting time. Which, being honest, it is cheaper to waste time on RS debating things that don't matter than burning components.

 

[Air Bear]

How much time and money does it take to go from a 1 MOA group to a 1/2 MOA group?

Not from 16 to 8, or 8 to 4, or 4 to 2, or 2 to 1. Those are all easily done with modern methods and equipment. But once you are at or close to 1 MOA, the time and money needed to halve it again goes up immensely. And the benefits become essentially irrelevant on animals with 8” vitals below 500 yards.

Telling a hunter to buy a $500-1000 match barrel instead of $500-1000 worth of practice ammunition is just pointless once he’s shooting 1” to 1.5” groups from a bench. At that point, his maximum range is whatever distance he can hit 10/10 inside that 8” circle from a given position and under field conditions. For some folks, the maximum range offhand is 50 yards or maximum range with any wind is 200 yards. Or whatever. And getting a match barrel or “better ammo” won’t increase the maximum range offhand or in the wind any appreciable amount.

I understand the temptation. It’s fun to shoot tiny little groups on paper. It builds confidence in ourselves and our equipment. But in non-static hunting situations, that ability and that confidence is hollow.

As the saying goes with any precision endeavor “the last 5-10% is going to require as much or more effort that the first 90-95%”…or something along those lines.

So to translate your basketball analogy to terms that address my shooting; if i have my1” (12 shot) groups, rather than be 3,4 or even 5% better from a bench, i should go out and build my field fundamentals up to the 90-95% level as a better investment. This makes sense. And someday when i need another hobby, i can lool into reloading and chasing that last 5% from a bench.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

As the saying goes with any precision endeavor “the last 5-10% is going to require as much or more effort that the first 90-95%”…or something along those lines.

So to translate your basketball analogy to terms that address my shooting; if i have my1” (12 shot) groups, rather than be 3,4 or even 5% better from a bench, i should go out and build my field fundamentals up to the 90-95% level as a better investment. This makes sense. And someday when i need another hobby, i can lool into reloading and chasing that last 5% from a bench.

Exactly. Once your hunting rifle is in the range you describe, you are best off taking your .22 and/or .223 out and practicing shooting from field positions.